Terrible train accident in Spain (Galicia)

[marknewton]

Then our so much weakened media that has bled off most of its experienced editorial and reporting staff and management that knows nothing of what real news is just feeds on it then the public feeds on it and they go to the Internet and shout and the cycle just gets more viral and vicious... Use to be very seasoned editors would make sure things were backed up before the ran with a story...

 

Even then the mainstream media were useless when reporting on railway accidents. Nothing's changed. Journalists who know SFA about how railways work still spout shit, or they interview some dimwitted witness who inevitably likens the incident to "a bomb going off". The media can't even begin to sensibly explain or analyse incidents like these, so they fall back on so-called "human interest" stories that add abolutely nothing to my understanding or knowledge of events.

 

Mark.

[marknewton]

It is widely reported that the train was speeding.

 

That's self evident. But the reasons why aren't, nor will they be established by uninformed commentators in the media or on the internet. I don't have much faith in the ability of a judicial inquiry to get any useful answers, either.

 

It is irrational to blame the lack of speed limiting technology as the cause of the accident.

 

If you had any experience of rail operations or accidents, you'd know that it's very rational to acknowledge that a lack of automatic train control is a factor. You're making the same mistake as all the other amateur accident investigators on the 'net, assuming that there is only one cause. Reason's "Swiss Cheese Model" tell us otherwise... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_cheese_model_

 

The train has a brake, which the driver failed to use properly. 

 

Thats nothing more than speculation on your part - you have no way of knowing what he was doing.

 

He has brought such shame upon himself, his family and his profession.

 

Sorry, that's utter bollocks.

 

Mark.

[bill937ca]

This whole thing smells to me like a coverup to blame the train driver. He was called by the dispatcher (who should know by timetable which part of the line he was on). The lack of automatic train control on this line is alarming on a high speed and more so on a high speed line with tight curves. Dani has pointed out there are low speed curves built into this high-speed line At 220km/hour it takes less than a minute to travel 4 Km. Any delay in braking would catastrophic.  If you have a high speed line, the whole line should be high speed not just part of it and especially the curves. Remember the cctv video of the wreck? Apparently the railway was more concerned with preventing graffiti on the concrete walls than with the safety of the line. 

 

This was also is not a purely electric train.  It has a dual-power "electro-diesel" consist of: electric cab car, diesel power slug, 9 Talgo passenger cars, another diesel power slug, and another electric cab car.  Reportedly the diesel slugs have a higher center of gravity than the rest of the train. That is why there was a fire. Would a purely electric train made it around the curve?

 

This apparently is a private prosecution launched by the same railway that operates a deeply flawed line.

 

I still think the government (and hence the railway) was more concerned with having a high speed line for economic reasons and keeping up with other countries (keeping up with the Joneses). Safety and security were secondary considerations to political factors.

Edited August 3, 2013 by bill937ca

[westfalen]

Apparently the railway was more concerned with preventing graffiti on the concrete walls than with the safety of the line.

From what I saw while I was travelling through Spain RENFE fail miserably in this too.

[cteno4]

It seems shocking that dispatch would call the train while underway in a situation where driving attention should be paid. If it was not an emergency why not do the call when on slow approach to the changed routing. With a single driver this just seems to scream a no no in taking attention off driving the train and keeping track of location, limits and speed. It's sounding like a cascade of failures all thru the process. But like mark said I doubt we will ever hear the final report (and then who knows how much will get covered up) let alone have it properly reported... Lets hope all the facts can be sussed out properly in the investigation and brought to light for correction and prevention in the future, but we humans don't always learn from our mistakes.

 

Jeff

Edited July 31, 2013 by cteno4

[E6系]

Hello Mr Jeff,

 

Perhaps the call related to the issue of speed.  If controllers noticed that the train was travelling with excessive speed perhaps they tried to contact the driver.  Is the train fitted with a communications system to controller?

[cteno4]

It will be interesting to hear. The first report was that it was a dispatch call to change routing into the station or something like that and that the train operator was shuffling papers probably to get the relevant paperwork in front of himself up to the time of the crash. but again who knows and its going to be a while till we know the complete story. This morning's news was saying they are trying to figure out exactly who called the train operator. So far there have been no mentions of controllers knowing the speed of the train before/during the accident, but again who knows the full story now. Its going to take a long investigation to find the story and hopefully it will be done right and not coverups.

 

jeff

[westfalen]

Hello Mr Jeff,

 

Perhaps the call related to the issue of speed.  If controllers noticed that the train was travelling with excessive speed perhaps they tried to contact the driver.  Is the train fitted with a communications system to controller?

It would be interesting to see the transcripts of the train to control radio. My guess though is that control may not have known the train was speeding, if the signalling on the line was not sophisticated enough to provide the continuous cab signalling and automatic train control that should be a given when operating at those speeds then it would also not have given any warnings to control. If the track only has normal track circuiting the controller would only see when the train passes each signal, if the last signal before the 80kmh speed limit was near the point where the driver should have begun braking all would have appeared normal.

[cteno4]

News reports are not clear if it was the radio phone or the company cell phone, most just say phone, others say cell phone but from the language they dont sound like they would know there were two different phones.

 

it does appear that the driver has told the investigating judge that he was talking by phone to the train's on-board ticket inspector on what platform they were using -- not control operators.

 

jeff

[marknewton]

Now I'm speculating here, but as an educated guess the cab would have a train radio, an intercom/PA and probably a mobile/cell/satellite phone. So I can imagine a scenario where control calls the driver to inform him he's going to be put onto a different platform to the one he's expecting to arrive on, then the driver uses the intercom to inform the on-board crew of the platform change. If that's the case then it's not hard to see how easily he could have been distracted and missed his braking point.

 

As westfalen has already noted, it's astonishing that there was no automatic train control system in place. 

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

[bill937ca]

"The driver received a call on his work phone in the cabin, not his personal cellphone, to tell him what approach to take toward his final destination. The Renfe employee on the telephone "appears to be a controller," the statement said."

 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2013/07/30/spain-train-crash-driver-speed-phone.html

[Ochanomizu]

I let the driver's confession speak for itself.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/01/world/europe/spain-train-accident.html?_r=0

[Ochanomizu]

Hello,

 

I do not know much about this type of train.  But I find link here: http://www.ferropedia.es/wiki/Renfe_Serie_130

 

I cannot understand Spanish.

 

So, this train is diesel / electric hybrid?

 

Electric can operate DC 3kV and AC 25kV?

 

The train is variable gauge?

 

It is such a high-tech and flexible specification but I cannot find info on safety specifications.

[cteno4]

AP is reporting it was not a controller but an onboard ticket inspector.

 

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/spanish-train-crash-driver-identifies-caller-19827192

 

AP makes it sound more like the inspector ringing the driver up to talk about the next platform stop (not clear if the inspector was asking or got new info, etc, but that he did survive the crash.)

 

so this does not seem clear yet who it is.

 

in any case its looking to be a whole cascade of failrues.

 

- Single driver with areas changing speeds with no automatic backup

- Single driver allowing a distraction at just the wrong time. 1 minute or so of chat would have been time needed to overshoot. It is his responsibility under policy to only answer when he deems safe.

- in our current society we are steeped in the reflex reaction of answering a phone. this is something that has to be heavily trained out of folks in these sorts of situations, but people still do it, culture we live in always gnawing at the training.

- No automatic backups in that area.

 

Ultimately much of this is still with the driver's judgement, but at least it is becoming understandable how it happened and hopefully these are all things that can be addressed so that the tragedy does not happen again.

 

jeff

[Ochanomizu]

Hello Mr Jeff,

 

I just read the article in you link.  Very interesting.  Perhaps Spanish railway standards only require speed control on high speed track.  Lets hope this tragedy encourages the authorities to review the use of such equipment.

 

The train had been going as fast as 119 mph (192 kph) shortly before the derailment, and the driver activated the brakes "seconds before the crash," according to those findings. The speed limit on the section of track where the crash happened was 50 mph (80 kph).

...

The Spanish rail company has said the brakes should have been applied four kilometers (2.5 miles) before the train hit the curve.

 

I remember the formula for calculating the distance travelled during acceleration:

 

d = (V_I²-V_F²)/2a

 

I do not know the deceleration rate for this train.  I use shinkansen 500 organization:

 

 

0 - 70km/h時：2.70km/h/s（常用最大）
120km/h時：2.24km/h/s（常用最大）
230km/h時：1.45km/h/s（常用最大）
320km/h時：1.12km/h/s（常用最大）
0 - 70km/h時：3.64km/h/s（非常）
230km/h時：2.03km/h/s（非常）
320km/h時：1.57km/h/s（非常）

 

Q: based on my infos above, what would maximum speed be before starting safe standard deceleration 4km away?

A: 140km/h.

 

Of course, although my math is correct, I am using the figures from 500 organization shinkansen, which is not the correct train.  But it raises the question: what was the speed limit 4km up the line?

[westfalen]

He had 1'30 minutes to reduce speed (4 km before the curve), no more. There is no signal or warning before this 1'30 m., it's something that driver must know, and there is no indication in the route book they use. Just from 190km/h to 80km/h exactly in the curve. When doing the high speed line, the company decided not to invest in removing the curve.

 

And the company (RENFE) brought a private prosecution against the driver, when I think the company should be judged as well. Double standards, in my opinion...

 

 

 

Hello Mr Jeff,

 

But it raises the question: what was the speed limit 4km up the line?

190kmh.

 

After our Tilt Train derailment Queensland Rail placed warning signs in advance of reductions in the speed limit of 30kmh or more, whether the Spainish driver had even this basic reminder I don't know, going by the above post he didn't, but we have them even when the speed drops from 80 to 50kmh, 190 to 80 must certainly warrant something.  With no automatic train control it is up to the driver when to start braking, we usually have a landmark we pick out such as a relay cabinet or a lineside tree or house where we start braking. Something else to consider is what the lineside scenery is like, if you have many kilometres of monotonous look alike scenery it is not hard to momentarily lose track of exactly where you are. It took me longer to learn the road to the Gold Coast than other routes because of the realitive lack of landmarks and continuous 140kmh speed limit.

 

If he was talking on the on-train intercom to another of the train crew the he forgot a word that is drummed into us from day one of our training 'prioritise'. I would have shut off power and started a brake application before answering the intercom, or at least I say I would have done that, being human I might have done the same thing he did which is why at those speeds some type of driving aid like atoumatic train control is a necessity.

Edited August 1, 2013 by westfalen

[Ochanomizu]

Hello Mr Westfalen,

 

Thank you for the update.

 

It would be good to see the full width image of the route book.  I am not familiar.  The column containing the time appears to cut off at the critical point.  On the far left appears to be the distance travelled.  The speed is in the next column.  The column heading is Vmax.

 

Does Vmax mean the maximum speed that the track is rated? 

[Mudkip Orange]

warning signs in advance of reductions in the speed limit of 30kmh or more

 

Exactly. Lots of places in the US where you connect a divided highway bypass into an existing two-lane and the speed drops. Maybe you had several miles of posted 65-70mph and that craps you into a two-lane section with 30mph corners. The thing is, when you design a setup like this, you *know* you're creating a potential blackspot and you compensate with a bunch of advance signage. In the particular instance where a corner immediately follows a tunnel (as in Spain), every agency I've ever done work for would've had overhead advisory signage with blinking lights.

 

Now, granted, we expect train operators to be trained to a higher standard than motorists, with correspondingly less sign overkill. But to not have *anything* is just crazy. In particular, the braking zone from 220 to 80 will be sufficiently long that the operator won't be able to see any signage delineating the start of 80 from the point at which he has to brake. Thus you either need advance warning signs or you need stepdown limits. The latter is standard in Texas, where we have very high speed two lane rural roadways, you have a 70mph to 55mph, a 55mph to 45mph, 45mph to 30-35mph over the course of 1.5 miles or so before you get to the city limits.

[Ochanomizu]

Hello Mr Orange,

 

Yes, your point is valid, but isn't advance warning provided in the image posted by Mr Westfalen?

[westfalen]

Hello Mr Westfalen,

 

Thank you for the update.

 

It would be good to see the full width image of the route book.  I am not familiar.  The column containing the time appears to cut off at the critical point.  On the far left appears to be the distance travelled.  The speed is in the next column.  The column heading is Vmax.

 

Does Vmax mean the maximum speed that the track is rated? 

You'd have to ask Dani, the original poster of the picture but I assume that is what Vmax means although it could also be the the maximum speed allowed for that type of train, different types of train may have different speed limits over the same section of track.

[westfalen]

Hello Mr Orange,

 

Yes, your point is valid, but isn't advance warning provided in the image posted by Mr Westfalen?

If you refer to the page out of the route book that would hardly be coinsidered advance warning of a reduced speed limit even if he had the book open in front of him, what is needed at those speeds is something that cannot be ignored or missed by a driver distracted for a few seconds such as an audible and visual warning from some type of automatic train control that applies the brakes unless it is acknowledged by reducing the speed to the allowed limit.

[cteno4]

Interesting article

 

http://nyti.ms/1cZeIg9

 

Cheers

 

Jeff

Edited September 10, 2013 by cteno4

[Ochanomizu]

Japan has seven Grade-4 Automation railways, that is to say, driverless trains.  The oldest, Kobe New Transit - Port Liner, opened in 1981.  To date, I am not aware of any accident across the Grade-4 network.

[ToniBabelony]

Japan has seven Grade-4 Automation railways, that is to say, driverless trains.  The oldest, Kobe New Transit - Port Liner, opened in 1981.  To date, I am not aware of any accident across the Grade-4 network.

 

Wouldn't those be considered horizontal open-air elevators? :P

[Mudkip Orange]

"publicly boasted about past speeding"

 

No, he boasted about doing 200km... in a 200km zone. Strictly enthusiam about the fact that his job lets him go fast.

 

"was talking on a mobile phone seconds before the derailment"

 

Misleading, since it was railway officials calling him on his work phone.

 

 

 

Nice to see we're still slandering this guy, even in the lede to an article that's ostensibly about the need for improved safety systems.