Installing Kato Drop-In Decoders (EM13, FL12)

[Ochanomizu]

Are you running on a test track?  That is the best place to test your decoder.

[surfingstephens]

Are you running on a test track?  That is the best place to test your decoder.

 

No I am not.  I do have several other DCC loco's on the layout that are running fine though.  I run all dcc on my layout.    What I did was set up a seperate test track with DC and then ran the loco that was having the problem on there.  It runs fine.  To me, this tells me the electrical connection is good going through the EM13 card or it would not move.   Now that I know that the electrical connections are good I am focusing on the card itself.  I am able to put it on a programming track and program it to address 16 and then when I put it on the main track it moves  about 8 inches and then stops.  After that, there is no action at all.    

 

At one point I actually soldered a wire to the underside of one of the em13 cards and then soldered to the copper pickups to ensure good electrical connections.   This did not help.   I then unsoldered it and installed the new em13.  I did the tests above and am left scratching my head on this one.   I did a couple reset's on the card as well using cv08.    

 

How reliable are these EM13 cards??  Have they been known to have quality issues??

[Guest Closed Account 1]

Sounds like dirty track or wheels.

 

Wipe down the crown and webbing anyway.

 

The EM13 is sprung against the copper pickups. No need to solder.

[CaptOblivious]

I'd check the wheel-to-brass-strip connections. These can be a bit dodgy too. Make sure the brass strips inside the frame a clean, and the t-shaped brass thingers inside the trucks are also clean. On the Kato units, the little cups inside the t-shaped brass strips, where the ends of the axles ride, can fill with dirt and lint, leading to bad electrical contact. Clean the t-shaped brass bits really carefully, and maybe use a bit of Conducta lubricant at the axle points, and along the brass strips where the t-shaped bits make contact.

[surfingstephens]

Thanks for the advice guys.  I will look at it some more.  I can now safely say I can disassemble and reassemble these trains with my eyes closed give the amount of practice I have had.    I will look at setting up a clean piece of test track to my dcc controller to eliminate track issues.  I have not looked at the condition of the copper to the wheels so I will check that. 

 

If it runs fine on DC though, doesn't that imply that all the electrical connections are essentially good?  Before you know it, I will be doing the entire electrical connections with wire and and solder.    I wonder how the "pros" do it and if they are soldering things into place to ensure good electrical connections? 

[CaptOblivious]

Thanks for the advice guys.  I will look at it some more.   I can now safely say I can disassemble and reassemble these trains with my eyes closed give the amount of practice I have had.     I will look at setting up a clean piece of test track to my dcc controller to eliminate track issues.  I have not looked at the condition of the copper to the wheels so I will check that. 

 

If it runs fine on DC though, doesn't that imply that all the electrical connections are essentially good?  Before you know it, I will be doing the entire electrical connections with wire and and solder.    I wonder how the "pros" do it and if they are soldering things into place to ensure good electrical connections?   

 

I must have missed that. Runs on DC with decoder installed? If so, yes you are partially correct—that alone implies a reasonably good electrical connection, at least enough for power to reach the decoder. However, DCC is more sensitive to dirty track—so the decoder might be getting (somewhat intermittent) power, but the connection is still dirty enough to distort the signal on the rails. You don't notice the intermittent power in DC mode because it should take the decoder about 40ms to reboot into DC mode. That is a short enough time that the residual energy in the motor windings (plus the flywheels if so equipped) will keep the motor turning despite the power outage and reboot.

[Vato]

EM13 sucks (sorry, but I don't have other words)

 

can I use different decoder? (Kato N700 NOZOMI)

Edited February 1, 2013 by vatato

[KenS]

EM13 sucks (sorry, but I don't have other words)

 

can I use different decoder? (Kato N700 NOZOMI)

 

It does.  Particularly on older models where Kato wasn't as good at getting the tolerances right. It can be a real pain to get it to work reliably, and in some cases it just won't (I have one old EMU model that just doesn't want to work with one).

 

I'm not aware of anyone making a drop-in EM13 replacement. And since the problems are more with the car design anyway, that likely wouldn't help.

 

You could wire in a decoder, but that would take a bit of work. But while that would solve the "poor contact" problem between the brass strips that run the length of the car and the motor tabs (and the decoder between them), it won't help if you have any of the problems on the wheel pickups that Don mentioned, so you might want to be sure of those first.

 

If you wire-in a decoder, any of the ones discussed on the motor-car thread will work in place of the EM13.

[nik_n_dad]

You could wire in a decoder, but that would take a bit of work. But while that would solve the "poor contact" problem between the brass strips that run the length of the car and the motor tabs (and the decoder between them), it won't help if you have any of the problems on the wheel pickups that Don mentioned, so you might want to be sure of those first.

I found that I've had to add shims made from sheet styrene on a couple of trains to get the EM13 to work.  

[E6系]

EM13 is easily fixed with solder on the tabs and some light sanding.

 

Newer product appears to be problem free.

[fvarlik]

I have the same Nozomi N700A. I've just installed this Kato EM-13. Question; Before testing in DCC mod, I've just checked in in DC mode, but it did not move reverse, only forward. Is that normal? Did I do s'thing wrong?

Edited November 3, 2015 by fvarlik

[Blobby]

hi

 

I've just fitted a EM13 decoder to a Kato E231-500 using the very clear instructions in this thread. However I have hit a problem when I put the car OK a program track connected to my esu command station to check cv values. The motor immediatly starts turning at some speed, attempts to read cv values either give a spurious value or show error. Any pointers gratefully received!

[kvp]

Please check if you have installed the decoder upside down. This could damage the decoder. Inserting it partially may short the input and output sides.

 

Also, there is a minimal voltage which is detected by the decoder and under that it may interpret the dcc signal as analog.

 

Also the kato cab decoders don't support cv readback as they lack suitable loads.

[Blobby]

Hi KVP

 

Thanx - The decoder is the right way up as in the photo and as far as I can see its fully inserted - I'll check the voltage tomorrow, do you know what his minimum voltage is?

[kvp]

Around 12 to 14 volts DCC. (most multimeters can't measure DCC voltages without extra circuits, so you have to check it otherwise) Any working DCC decoder must stay still on a programming track unless emitting a feedback pulse, but can and usually does move the motor for programming feedback and CV readout.

 

A failure in DC mode with only one direction might mean a damaged decoder, usually a short between the inputs and the outputs or a damaged motor driver/microcontroller, stuck with one set of gates active/shorted or half of the bridge rectifier shorted (esentially the decoder only acts as a single analog diode). Usual causes are reverse installation, input/output shorts or overvoltage/static discharge damage.

 

How about removing the decoder, connecting its inputs to the programming track signal and its outputs to a track with an analog motor unit on it. This should allow programming/readback without installing it anywhere.

[Blobby]

Thanks again KVP - part of me thinks dcc and Japanese is going to be a bit of a no no - I've got used to American modelling where you buy stuff with dcc decoder already fitted!

[inobu]

Blobby,

 

Kato decoders are produced by Digitrax and that may be your problem. Digitrax controller uses a program track that is powered differently. It may may be the source of your problem. Add a longer wire run to your program track to reduce the signal load. 

 

Inobu

[Blobby]

Thanx Inobu

[inobu]

I meant to induce a signal load.  A disparity in the voltage level can induce noise effecting the DCC wave form. The data is distorted creating erroneous commands. Playing with the length of track and wire would be equivalent to putting the decoder to a location where it can "hear" the commands.  

 

Inobu

[kvp]

Actually putting a motor car with a factory programmed Kato decoder onto the mainline should respond to address 3. Programming and reprogramming should be done after testing the installation with the default address and speed settings. It should just work unless there is some fault somewhere.

[new at it]

I just programmed a 4 digit address into a KATO FL 12 decoder using a Digitrax command station and a DT402D throttle. It was very simple, just go to: http://www.sumidacrossing.org/ModelTrains/ModelTrainDCC/KatoDCCDecoders/ , scroll to the bottom of the page and follow the instructions. Be sure to click on the "DCC Calculator" link to get the CV17, CV18, & CV29 values.

[williamv]

Hi everyone,

I’m not too sure if I have some faulty EM13 decoders or if there’s a problem with the installation.

I installed an EM13 in a Kato E233 but when I try to read the decoder on the programming track, my system says that the programming track is empty. I tried removing the decoder and reinstalling it but it still didn’t work.

I have the same issue with 3 of these decoders. I also tried one of these decoders in a Kato E231-500 and had the same issue.

I set these 3 decoders aside and tried a different EM13 decoder in the E233 and it worked.

I’m assuming that this means that it’s a problem with the decoders, rather than the installation but I’m

not sure.

The locomotives are brand new and have never been used, although I’ve had them in storage for some years, so I doubt the contacts are dirty.

If anyone has any troubleshooting advice, I would be very grateful. I’m a beginner so I’ll probably be only to do limited troubleshooting...

[Takahama Trainwatcher]

What are the model numbers? The earlier models can have poor contact between the conductors inside the carriage and the decoder, necessitating adding some shims to force a better contact. The later models have a better setup for reliable electrical contact.

[williamv]

10-578 is the E231-500

10-801 the E233

 

I bought them over 5 years ago, so definitely old. Maybe I’ll see what I can do with the shims, and see if that helps. Thanks. 🙂

[Takahama Trainwatcher]

1 minute ago, williamv said:

10-578 is the E231-500

10-801 the E233

 

I bought them over 5 years ago, so definitely old. Maybe I’ll see what I can do with the shims, and see if that helps. Thanks. 🙂

Ha, ha, 10-578... I have that. In my spreadsheet my note says: "Motor bad contact". I have it running fine, now, however, thanks to the shims (just tested yesterday).

There are some entries earlier in this thread relating to the shims. 

 

If you get stuck with it, I can take a photo of one of mine to indicate where to put the shims.