Installing Kato Drop-In Decoders (EM13, FL12)

[Guest Closed Account 1]

Maybe TCS will produce similar decoders this year.

[The_Ghan]

...

Decoder PRO automatically determines KATO FL12 as Digitrax TF4 - http://www.digitrax.com/prd_statdec_tf4.php

They have the same identifiers. Default value in KATO FL12:

CV8 (Manufacturer ID) = 129 - is Digitrax

CV7 (Version ID) = 254 - as TF4

 

I think that is just a coincidence and neither the TF4 nor the TF1 have the capability to reverse the directional lighting with a change in direction of travel.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[CaptOblivious]

Digitrax informed me today that "All CVs should work the same on all DCC decoders as far as programming is concerned and do on all Digitrax decoders."

 

That's a bald-faced lie. Unless they mean something other than what it looks like they are saying. Many CVs—even those carefully defined by the NMRA—often require different settings to get the same effect on different decoders. Just ask anyone on the JMRI/DecoderPro team!

[The_Ghan]

NMRA Recommended Practice - CVs

 

The fact that this is a "Recommended Practice" and that only three or four CVs are actually mandatory (the rest being "Recommended" or "Optional") should put the matter to rest.  Further, CV47-64 are "Manufacturer Unique" meaning a manufacturer can do whatever they like with them.  Eg: Digitrax uses CV61 for Transponding ... and no one else uses Transponding!  Other manufacturers would do something completely different with CV61.

 

I've had plenty of support from techsupport@digitrax.com.  While their replies are often brief and usually edits of my initiating questions, they've always been specific and to-the-point.  I've never heard of them making such a flippant remark and they know DCC well enough to know it isn't true.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[Guest Closed Account 1]

Was this directed at me?

[CaptOblivious]

NMRA Recommended Practice - CVs

 

The fact that this is a "Recommended Practice" and that only three or four CVs are actually mandatory (the rest being "Recommended" or "Optional") should put the matter to rest.  Further, CV47-64 are "Manufacturer Unique" meaning a manufacturer can do whatever they like with them.  Eg: Digitrax uses CV61 for Transponding ... and no one else uses Transponding!  Other manufacturers would do something completely different with CV61.

 

I've had plenty of support from techsupport@digitrax.com.  While their replies are often brief and usually edits of my initiating questions, they've always been specific and to-the-point.  I've never heard of them making such a flippant remark and they know DCC well enough to know it isn't true.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

 

Oh, I've gotten plenty of subtle snark and flippant remarks from them, and others too. I think you've just been lucky ;)

[The_Ghan]

Was this directed at me?

 

Not directed AT you 'skip ... but certainly in response to your post.

 

I'm wondering if, when they said "all CVs should behave the same" they're meaning "it would be good if all CVs behaved the same" ... as an international traveller might say "all cars should be left hand drive".  I find they often answer my questions with a brief "yes" or "no" when I was wanting a bit more of an explanation.  Sometimes I wonder if they're going to start answering simply with a "1" and "0" ... digital response ... 

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[Guest Closed Account 1]

I may have installed the cab decoders backwards because I had to rotate the whole motor car 180 to match the directional lights. Lol.

 

Finally a Kato decoder install with no hitches in front of a crowd.

[The_Ghan]

ROFL,

 

Just rotate those cab decoders when you next get a chance.

 

Cheers

 

Nige'

[kmcsjr]

Hopefully someone can take a step back and describe whats been learned about the F12 for someone installing his first decoders and has had DCC for 2 weeks.

My train happens to be a Lemke/Kato ET 425.

I was able to install an EM13 in the powered unit and FL12s in both end cars.

In the powered car the lights respond properly

In the non powered car, the white light is always on.

I started with the F12s are installed in opposite orientations, as described earlier in the thread.

I reversed the non powered car FL12, now the red light is always on and flickers. I will try moving it a bit.

No help, the flickering looks more like it cant figure out which drection it is going. Maybe a bad decoder?

I also cant activate a long address (it says it cant read the cv) looks like cv1 = 3 meaning 2 digit address, what is other value for 4 digit?

 

 

 

I wil reread, but consists and even getting to where I can "see" the FL12 decoders with my NCE Power Cab controller is beyond me.

Can someone describe what I need to do, as step by step as possible?

In advance, I thank you, I'm sure this is painful for those that have taken the time to learn.

[Guest Closed Account 1]

I was able to install an EM13 in the powered unit and FL12s in both end cars.

In the powered car the lights respond properly

In the non powered car, the white light is always on.

 

Compare the 2 end cars side by side. Are the decoders installed oppositely? Easy to goof this step.

 

As long as they are installed opposite of each other the directional lighting will work.

 

There really isn't a need to program CV's with these. Not necessary to consist them either. Just program all 3 with the same short or long (4 Digit) address.

 

Since the headlamps are stuck on on only one, then pull out the decoder a hair and see if that fixes the issue.

 

That same issue was solved for me by sending it to Kato USA for a warranty replacement. Don't contact Digilax for help.

 

Search for help on this decoder on this site. Download the Decoder guides on Kato USA http://www.katousa.com/N/accessories.html

 

NCE Power Cab Manual: http://www.ncedcc.com/pdf/Power%20Cab%20Manual%201-25-06.pdf  Start with page 10.

 

Programming decoders is best accomplished on an isolated track. I have double track on 1x3 craft wood with bumpers.

 

To program a 4 digit address just follow the NCE manual starting on page 4.

[kmcsjr]

Thanks

I think KatoUSA is going to be my solution. I will call the store I bought it first, but ultimately, I think you are right. I put the rear car on the track alone (my test track is a small loop on a hotel desk (I'm travelling). NCE can't read CV during step where it should be reading manufacturer. I will look for CV1 setings in NCE manual etc. after work.

[Guest Closed Account 1]

NCE can't read CV during step where it should be reading manufacturer. I will look for CV1 setings in NCE manual etc. after work.

 

Try this:

 

Decoder PRO automatically determines KATO FL12 as Digitrax TF4 - http://www.digitrax.com/prd_statdec_tf4.php

They have the same identifiers. Default value in KATO FL12:

CV8 (Manufacturer ID) = 129 - is Digitrax

CV7 (Version ID) = 254 - as TF4

[CaptOblivious]

Many programmers won't be able to read the FL12's. Moreover, many programmers can't automatically program the 4-digit addresses into any of the Kato decoders; rather, you'll have to do it by hand. At the top of the thread somewhere is a link to a CV calculator that will help you determine the settings—there are three CVs you need to set to activate 4-digit addressing.

 

As for the flickering, sounds like a contact issue. The FL12s are notoriously tricky to install with good, solid contact. Try repositioning them slightly, pulling them out a bit, or pushing them in very securely. On some of my models, I could only get reliable performance by actually deliberately not seating them fully!

[KenS]

I also cant activate a long address (it says it cant read the cv) looks like cv1 = 3 meaning 2 digit address, what is other value for 4 digit?

 

I wil reread, but consists and even getting to where I can "see" the FL12 decoders with my NCE Power Cab controller is beyond me.

Can someone describe what I need to do, as step by step as possible?

 

First, I suggest getting everything working with address 3, before you set any CVs.  You can set CV8 to 8 to reset the decoder to factory defaults.

 

As noted, it's very hard to read an FL12. Particularly with LED lighting there just isn't enough of an electrical load on the decoder (reading decoders depends on sensing current variations made by switching the load on and off quickly). So don't consider that a problem, although it can interfere with some automatic setup routines, since the programmer can't find the manufacturer ID.

 

To manually program a four-digit address: (I'm assuming your programmer uses decimal numbers)

 

It's easier to use a DCC Calculator to get the CV values, but if you don't have access to the web when working, you can do it with an ordinary calculator.

 

1. Pick an address of 128 or higher ("four digit" really means "more than 127").  Set CV17 to the high byte value.  If doing this with a normal calculator, divide the address by 256 and discard any fraction.  Eg, assume you want to program 1700. 1700/256=6.640625, so the number is "6".  Next add 192 to this to get 198, and program this value into CV17. You have to add 192 because of the way the number is stored in the CV.  A DCC Calculator will add this addition for you.

 

2. Now program CV18 to the low byte value.  If doing it manually, do the same division, drop the number left of the decimal, and multiple by 256 (1700/256=6.640635, subtract six and multiply 256*0.640635=164).  The result shouldn't have any fraction (if it does, round to the nearest integer).  Program this number (164) into CV18.

 

3. Set CV29 to it's current value plus 32.  If you can't read it, assume the current value is the default 6 and set it to 38. This enables use of the CV17/CV18 address instead of the short address in CV01.

 

Note: CV1 can be set to any address from 1 to at least 99 (some decoders allow 100-127 also).  The value in it is the address itself, not a special value.  The default, "3", means "use address 3".

 

And as others noted, just program each decoder in a train to the same address.  You don't need to consist them since they're permanently associated and you don't need to control them individually.  But do program one at a time, preferably using a programming track.

[The_Ghan]

 

First, I suggest getting everything working with address 3, before you set any CVs.  You can set CV8 to 8 to reset the decoder to factory defaults.

...

 

 

For this reason I haven't set any of my permanent addresses to less than 10, for both mobile and stationary decoders.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[KenS]

I generally avoid addresses below 128 for both kinds, to avoid conflicts with advanced consisting addresses, and to avoid stationary decoder defaults (some of the Digitrax things use 30+ addresses).

[kmcsjr]

Guys, i will spend my evenings getting into decoder pro, but first I will try these suggestions. the hobby shop has agreed to replace the decoder, but I will wait until I have tried this. 3 more questions. 1 real, 1 real dumb and  1, well, you decide.

1) Has anyone had success, just dropping this in and programming on a NCE Power Cab?

2) I do need an FL12 at each end, right?

3) Can someone define "drop in decoder" lol. Such an eligant design. Such attention to standardizing across the product line (heck the EM13 works in a Kato Gs-4). Surely, I'm missing the definition of "drop in decoder"..

 

Thanks again.

[Guest Closed Account 1]

Guys, i will spend my evenings getting into decoder pro, but first I will try these suggestions. the hobby shop has agreed to replace the decoder, but I will wait until I have tried this. 3 more questions. 1 real, 1 real dumb and  1, well, you decide.

1) Has anyone had success, just dropping this in and programming on a NCE Power Cab?

2) I do need an FL12 at each end, right?

3) Can someone define "drop in decoder" lol. Such an eligant design. Such attention to standardizing across the product line (heck the EM13 works in a Kato Gs-4). Surely, I'm missing the definition of "drop in decoder"..

 

Thanks again.

 

The only dumb question is the one not asked.

 

Any brand new DCC controller should communicate with any new decoder.

FL12 per car or one decoder per car.

 

Drop In means, no hardwiring with a solder gun. Sometimes, the motor to decoder board needs to be soldered but, it's minimal. On my Kato F3 A&B Black Widow the tabs needed a little solder to keep them powered.

 

Synopsis: Check that it runs on DC ok before converting. For Diesels,Take the shell off, loosen the frame, remove the original DC board and replace with DCC board. Test on the Run track using address 03. Now install the shell, and test Run again. Once ok, then put on the program track and program.

 

In the case of the FL12, it'll take a minute to install be ready to run.

[CaptOblivious]

I generally avoid addresses below 128 for both kinds, to avoid conflicts with advanced consisting addresses, and to avoid stationary decoder defaults (some of the Digitrax things use 30+ addresses).

 

 

Accessory or stationary decoders use a different address space, so no chance of an address collission with a mobile decoder.

[The_Ghan]

Hi kmcsjr,

 

See my comments below.

 

Guys, i will spend my evenings getting into decoder pro, but first I will try these suggestions. the hobby shop has agreed to replace the decoder, but I will wait until I have tried this. 3 more questions. 1 real, 1 real dumb and  1, well, you decide.

1) Has anyone had success, just dropping this in and programming on a NCE Power Cab? Yes.  Any DCC controller should do the job.

2) I do need an FL12 at each end, right?  Yes.

3) Can someone define "drop in decoder" lol. Such an eligant design. Such attention to standardizing across the product line (heck the EM13 works in a Kato Gs-4). Surely, I'm missing the definition of "drop in decoder"..  No soldering, cutting wires, modifying circuitry required.

 

Thanks again.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[The_Ghan]

I generally avoid addresses below 128 for both kinds, to avoid conflicts with advanced consisting addresses, and to avoid stationary decoder defaults (some of the Digitrax things use 30+ addresses).

 

 

Accessory or stationary decoders use a different address space, so no chance of an address collission with a mobile decoder.

 

 

 

I think KenS means he avoids stationary decoders out of the box conflicting with installed units.  But I thought all Digitrax equipment is supplied pre-set to address 03, so I thought it was safe to stick above address 10.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[inobu]

"drop in decoder"

 

I am finding that the term is for the manufactures. It specifies that "They" just have to drop the decoder in a bag and ship it verses "them" having to solder wires on the board before putting them in the bag.

 

I have not really had a drop in decoder. Mine are more like put in, take out, put in, search forum, put in.

 

but then that's just me. 

 

Inobu 

[KenS]

I generally avoid addresses below 128 for both kinds, to avoid conflicts with advanced consisting addresses, and to avoid stationary decoder defaults (some of the Digitrax things use 30+ addresses).

Accessory or stationary decoders use a different address space, so no chance of an address collission with a mobile decoder.

I think KenS means he avoids stationary decoders out of the box conflicting with installed units.  But I thought all Digitrax equipment is supplied pre-set to address 03, so I thought it was safe to stick above address 10.

 

Some day I'll learn to actually write in English. It's my native language, you'd think I could make myself clear in it. 

 

Yes, I know they're different address spaces.  What I was trying to say was that I avoid using "short" addresses on mobile decoders due to potential conflicts with both defaults (which should always be 3) and addresses used for Advance Consists (which are limited to the short form, so I want to keep the whole range free for that), as I expect to make use of those in the future.  And also, that I avoid use of low-numbered stationary decoder addresses (a separate address space) because some of the Digitrax stationary decoders use a large number of such.

 

So, yeah, avoidung short mobile decoder addresses is really about avoiding conflicts with consist addressing, not about avoiding defaults.  It's stationary decoders where defaults become a (big!) issue.

 

Although, it turns out that my memory was playing tricks on me regarding stationary decoders.  While the BDL168 does default to 1-16, the real problem child is the SE8C, which uses 72 addresses, but defaults to using 1-8 plus 247-320.  I don't have one of those installed yet, but I did plan my addressing around it, so you'd think I could remember that.  I've also seen reference (I can't remember on what) to use of addresses up to 45 for "configuration" (I really need to take better notes; I'm not sure if that was mobile or stationary).

[surfingstephens]

Working on getting my train going again that has a EM13 installed.  Seemed to have a bad electrical connection.  I actually purchase a second em13 to be sure I did not have a bad card.  After a lot of testing I am this point.  I can put dc power to the train and it works so I know the electrical is good.  When I start on dcc it will go a few inches and stop.  Then no action.  It really is odd, it is almost like the EM13 card itself is flakly?  I do have two of them though, and what are the odds of both being bad?  Is the EM13 card perhaps more sensitive electrically than when I run it dc?    Looking for any other tests I can run to figure out what is going on.  The card will program to a new address as well.