Installing Kato Drop-In Decoders (EM13, FL12)

[CaptOblivious]

Stupid question: Did you hit F0 on your throttle? The lights default to "off" until turned on…

[inobu]

Good troubleshooting...

 

Try to reconfigure the address just in case they are double assigned.

 

Program the decoders one at a time.

 

Make one address 3 and the other 5.

 

Then assign the function light to correspond to each....meaning decoder address 3 ---- Func light 3 and decoder 5 -> Function 5.

 

This will prevent confusion..........

 

which ever one works pull it off the track and leave bad one on.

 

Try the reset CV 8  008 and that should set everything to factory. and the address back to 3. then change 61 and 64 again.

 

The last thing is to pull the decoder and run the same test bare bone. Meaning hooking alligator clip straight to the board this would eliminate everything and the decoder could be label faulty if the light still fail.

 

Inobu      

 

The decoders have a notch that indicates the orientation. 

[inobu]

 

A true professional when you place a drop shadow on the arrow.... LOL .....Don!!! 

 

Inobu

[KenS]

I wasn't sure, but the CV's for both ends get the same CV settings, right?  The white/red changeover is accomplished via the orientation of the decoders when you install them as I understand it.

 

Normally, the red/white selection is done by the orientation of the decoder (i.e., at one end the tab with the copper trace in the middle should be visible in the opening where you inserted the decoder, in the other cab the tab with the copper trace to one side should be visible; in Don's photo the arrow points to the tab with the centered trace).

 

I'm not clear on why Inobu is suggesting different decoder addresses (so you can switch them separately as a test? Why not just test one at a time?).  In a working train, both should have the same address as the EM13, so they all react to changes in the trains directional setting.  With this, you'd normally program both cab decoders identically.

 

You could achieve the same result by putting both in the same way and changing the CVs for one of them to swap the fwd/reverse direction.

 

I'll admit I'm baffled.  The flash sounds like you've got good contact and the decoder just isn't working properly.  It could be an intermittant contact problem, or more likely a "not quite in position" incorrect contact problem. The CV8 reset would be my first thing to try, followed by adjusting position of the decoder by a half-millimeter or so.  Also try the working decoder in that car, and if it works then the other decoder is just bad.

 

As a last ditch effort, take the floor off the car (you'd need to remove the body, and it's not a simple task to take the floor out) and examine the contact strips to ensure they aren't damaged or out of position (they're sandwiched between the floor and the underbody parts).  That's really unlikely, but not impossible.

 

Very odd behavior.

[inobu]

"I'm not clear on why Inobu is suggesting different decoder addresses (so you can switch them separately as a test? Why not just test one at a time?).  In a working train, both should have the same address as the EM13, so they all react to changes in the trains directional setting.  With this, you'd normally program both cab decoders identically."

 

 

LOL,

 

KenS that is what I am having him to do but I'm doing one more things behind the scenes. I am letting him validate his steps. When Quinn changes the decoder address on each decoder as I suggested he will be proving a few thing.

 

1. When he changed the addressing he is separating the components into individual components.

2. He will validate his write and programming process....if one decoders works and the other does not under the same programming procedure he then validates the programming process if both fails then there is a issue with the programming step.

3. Which ever decoder 3 or 5 works properly he will place it aside and focus on the one that is not working.

4. Programming the function light is a way to label the decoders. F3 light verses F5 light.  

 

There is a term use in fault isolation called Shot gunning, it often leaves people baffled.

 

Your suggestion of taking the car apart is shot gunning. I'm surprised that you suggested that in that you developed the "test rig"  that he should use next.

LOL

 

If the decoder is not taking the write commands from its installed state the next step is to remove it place it in a test rig. That way you isolate the component to programmer, wire, decoder. If the decoder still does not take the write command then it is faulty.

 

Shot gunning will have you take a car apart when you don't need to.

 

I know the stuff I come up with seems crazy but ...lol...its thought out.  

 

Inobu  

[quinntopia]

Lot's of great ideas to look into!  I'll have some time to test them this weekend...I think I'm even going to swap the decoder that I do appear to have properly programmed (and seems to be working properly) with the other cab car and see what difference that makes. 

Stupid question: Did you hit F0 on your throttle? The lights default to "off" until turned on…

 

Nope! Perfectly reasonable question! But it was one of the first things I tried based on Ken's earlier post! 

[inobu]

Quinn,

 

The "Known Good test" (swapping out a known good component into a bad slot) is a valid test but I would continue with the method that requires a test rig.

 

If you build a test rig today you will have it for the rest of your life. KenS Test Jig thread

 

That way you can test all your decoders before your installs.

 

That's what I would do but either move will work...

 

Inobu.   

[quinntopia]

Some good news, I programmed the cab car that was not working with either  CV61= 02, CV64 = 0  [F0 = lights] or CV61=02, CV64= 02 [F5 = lights], with CV61=02, CV64= 01 [F3 = lights] and THAT seems to work just fine! 

 

Note that neither car initially worked with the F0= lights programming, and only one car was working when the CV's were set for F5 = lights.  Now the lights in each cab car require me to enter both F5 and F3 in order for them to work.

 

What a strange situation.  Is this normal?  I can live with it (and am glad everything works now!), but just seems a bit odd?

[CaptOblivious]

There might be a good reason for this, but it would take me some time to investigate. About your commande station: what number of DCC speed steps is it set up for? 14, 28, or 128? The way changes to F0 are communicated depends on this setting, and the decoders might only be compatible with one of those methods. Stupid DCC.

[quinntopia]

I'm set up for 128 speed steps.

[CaptOblivious]

I'm set up for 128 speed steps.

 

Same here, and never had this problem, so that's not it. Well, I guess so long as its working...

[inobu]

Good going Quinn,

 

Here is what you did. These decoders are basically PIC (Programmable Integrated Chips). They are little PC with RAMM and memory space called registers. The DCC program is written on the PIC and runs when it boots up (track power applied) Because it is read only you could only toggle the registers and look for an effect.

 

Toggling the registers for different functions is kinda like flipping switches. There seem to be an issue with the decoder involving the memory location and the ability for the program to read into those memory/registers slots.

 

Now that you can see the a cause and effect you know the decoder is functioning to a certain degree.

 

Most likely there is a problem on the output leg of the decoders. The registers that you were toggling tells the program which leg on the chip to output voltage. If the runs or leg on the chip is bad then you won't see those corresponding LED power up.

 

There is a problem just don't know if its on the board on in the chip.

 

Good work.........

 

Inobu      

 

 

 

[surfingstephens]

Hello, new to forum.  I am doing my first dcc conversion with the em13.  I ran into something that was not mentioned in the install and it gave me fits for awhile.  There is an existing white board plugged in where the em13 is to be installed that first must be gently lifted and slid out.  THEN the em13 fits nicely in its place.  I slid my em13 in right on top of it and wondered why the board was binding on the drive shaft.    Unfortunately, I have my dcc controller in for repair so I cannot yet test it all to declare victory, but thought I would mention it for others who try this install out.  Of course, after I figured it out it seemed obvious, but thought for the people who are trying for the first time like me I would mention it.

[KenS]

What train was that?  I've never seen a board in place of the EM13, but I've only done commuter EMUs and one Shinkansen.

 

Normally the motor directly contacts the power strips, and the EM13 slides in between those contacts, touching the motor tabs with one side and the power strips with the other.

 

The cab lighting (FL12) slot sometimes has a chunk of plastic (white or black) in it that has to be removed to install the FL12.  It acts as an on/off switch, with one position slid in between the contacts to turn the lights off, and the other back out of the way to allow them to work.  But I think it would be very had to slide an FL12 in under one of those (you'd be bending part of the plastic underbody in ways it wasn't meant to bend).

[surfingstephens]

The model is:

Kato N 10547 700 Series Shinkansen "Nozomi", 4-unit Set, Powered.

 

The piece I took out was white and shaped similiar to the em13.  It actually did appear to have some basic electrical stuff on the board.  I will see if I can take a picture of it tonight.

[surfingstephens]

This was what was in the slot where the em13 is supposed to go.  [/img]

[The_Ghan]

It is simply connecting the pickup contacts with the DCC output contacts.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[CaptOblivious]

This was what was in the slot where the em13 is supposed to go.  [/img]

 

This is really good to know! None of my Kato models have had this piece, so I would have never known!

[KenS]

Nor I.  The L-shaped contacts suggest that the motor contacts are located closer to the center than on the commuter cars.  But if so, the EM13 doesn't have contacts in those positions so perhaps this bit needs to remain in place for it to work.  Very odd.

[The_Ghan]

KenS,

 

I have this model, 10-547

 

The pickups are on one side (down) of the long legs and the outputs are on the other side (up).  If you look very closely at the points towards the centre you will see stud marks on both sides.  This is simply the point connecting both sides of the throw-away PCB (which I wouldn't throw away because you might need it to go back to DC).

 

Hope that clears things up.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[surfingstephens]

Good to know I was doing the right thing pulling it out.  It kinda blends in with the aluminum and it took me a minute of poking around with a small screw driver (with jewelers glasses) and finally deciding that number one, can I pull it out, and number 2 should I pull it out!  Once I managed to slide it out the new em13 board fit so perfectly in there that I figured that was how to do it.

[Guest Closed Account 1]

Digitrax informed me today that "All CVs should work the same on all DCC decoders as far as programming is concerned and do on all Digitrax decoders."

 

The Kato FL12 decoder should then program as any other decoder.

 

Has anyone succeeded with programming Rule 17 dimming of the headlight via CV49 = 104?  No I.

 

Does Decoder Pro help with the Kato decoders?

[KenS]

Decoder Pro is useful for some things, useless for others.

 

I can never get it to read every CV from the decoder (it usually times out partway through) even with the EM13 (and, of course, you can't read the light-only decoders because without a motor there isn't enough of a load on it).  It is very handy for setting things (most things) though.

 

I don't program four-digit addresses directly, but use the manual mode (I don't recall what it's called) to put the right values in each and setting the bit in CV29 (see the description on my site).

 

I haven't done anything really fancy with it, but I am planning to use it to program speed curves one of these years.

 

I haven't tried Rule 17.  I'd expect it to work since I'd thought these were FX3 decoders. CV49 with x68 (104 decimal) ought to be correct for the front headlight (F0 function) to dim when F4 is hit. 

 

I did see a discussion with someone else who had problems with a normal Digitrax decoder, so it's perhaps less obvious than the manual suggests and their idea of Rule 17 may be limited compared to what some others do. Another comment I found noted that LEDs don't dim as well as bulbs, so getting a useful dimming effect depended on proper resistor selection as well.

[Skvo]

Digitrax informed me today that "All CVs should work the same on all DCC decoders as far as programming is concerned and do on all Digitrax decoders."

Has anyone succeeded with programming Rule 17 dimming of the headlight via CV49 = 104?  No I.

Kato FL12 - not support any lighting effects. CV49 - not used.

Decoder Pro - will not help in this.

 

 

Kato FL12 support only:

 

1. 2 digit addressing or 4 digit addressing

(CV01, 2-digit) addressing for addresses from 1 to 127, and extended (CV17 & 18, 4-digit)

 

2. Normal Direction of Travel (NDOT)

Can be used, but instead, the decoder can be reverse in the car. You can choose - whatever you like...

CV29 as:

6 =  Forward direction, 2 digit address

7 =  Reverse direction, 2 digit address

38 =  Forward direction, 4 digit address

39 =  Reverse direction, 4 digit address

 

3. Transponding

CV61 as:

0 = Transponding OFF

2 = Transponding ON

 

4. Function controlling output

CV64 as:

0 = control F0

1 = control F3

2 = control F5

3 = control F9

 

5. Decoder Lock

CV15 & CV16, more details - http://www.digitrax.com/v1/LOCK.htm

CV54, decoder lock feature, as:

96 = decoder lock disabled (default value in KATO FL12)

32 = decoder lock enabled

[Skvo]

I can never get it to read every CV from the decoder (it usually times out partway through) even with the EM13 (and, of course, you can't read the light-only decoders because without a motor there isn't enough of a load on it).  It is very handy for setting things (most things) though.

I use NCE Power CAB and NCE USB-interface.

 

The situation with KATO EM13 and Decoder PRO:

Reading of CV registers is a problem if you use the Direct Byte method of programming, which is selected by default. If it is changed to Paged Mode method of programming, you do not have any problems with reading CV. In this mode, all read and write well...

 

The situation with KATO FL12 and Decoder PRO:

By default, nothing is read from the decoder in any mode programming. But if you connect to the output load of 100 mA - the reading of CV takes place without any problems in Paged Mode method of programming. The load - I using a light bulb 12V 1,2W.

 

 

I haven't tried Rule 17.  I'd expect it to work since I'd thought these were FX3 decoders.

Decoder PRO automatically determines KATO FL12 as Digitrax TF4 - http://www.digitrax.com/prd_statdec_tf4.php

They have the same identifiers. Default value in KATO FL12:

CV8 (Manufacturer ID) = 129 - is Digitrax

CV7 (Version ID) = 254 - as TF4