Enquiry about Damaged Kato power pack / Tomix pick up wheels

[katoftw]

katoflw,

 

you mean you were able to buy just the wall wart transformer for your kato controller? Ive never seen them sold separately.

 

what do you mean by a power adapter? a new wall wart transformer or 230 to 120v converter?

 

jeff

yes i bought one seperately 230v down to 15V 1.5A and has an aussie plug.  the american on in the original pack was only good for 100V do to 15V 1.5A and clear wouldn't work in our aussie power points.

 

http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=MP3059&form=CAT2&SUBCATID=1000#12

Edited December 12, 2013 by katoftw

[cteno4]

ok it was an aftermarket one 15vac. interesting they are not an easy thing to find at all here in the states for 120vac to 15vac. funny the aussie 220v was the only thing really showing up in google searches.

 

kato does not sell the wall adapter separately AFAIK. the 100v power pack is the japanese one, the US one is 120v. 

 

will be interesting to see if ken has thoughts as to using 15vdc input on the kato power pack.

 

jeff

[cteno4]

P.S.

The bogies for trailer car should be much cheaper.

 

the whole trailer bogie replacements are usually around 900 yen for a pair. hs stocks most all the power trucks (those are about about the same price but usually just one from tomix), but very few of the trailing trucks like this E1

 

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10069559

 

tomix does have a wide range of parts so perhaps one of the specialty places can get you just the pickups and springs.

 

jeff

[katoftw]

ok it was an aftermarket one 15vac. interesting they are not an easy thing to find at all here in the states for 120vac to 15vac. funny the aussie 220v was the only thing really showing up in google searches.

 

kato does not sell the wall adapter separately AFAIK. the 100v power pack is the japanese one, the US one is 120v. 

 

will be interesting to see if ken has thoughts as to using 15vdc input on the kato power pack.

 

jeff

oh ok then.  i just assumed australia being a small consumer market compared to the usa and asia, that usa and asian countries would have more products like this available than in australia.

[Sinus]

On the ones w/o the springs or pickups you should pull the truck off and make sure there is the metal pickup on the underside of the chassis on either side of the bolster pin socket. It looks to be there in the pictures thru the pickup whole in the truck.

 

It looks like you need the axle pickup strips and the springs. The strips rub in the channel on the axles and rest on the springs that then transfer the power into the chassis pickups.

 

Ill look for the catalog.

 

BTW. the pickup strips symbol is JS21 See here: http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10009996

[Sinus]

the whole trailer bogie replacements are usually around 900 yen for a pair. hs stocks most all the power trucks (those are about about the same price but usually just one from tomix), but very few of the trailing trucks like this E1

 

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10069559

 

tomix does have a wide range of parts so perhaps one of the specialty places can get you just the pickups and springs.

 

jeff

 

Just came to my mind that if buying new bogies it would be wise to upgrade the set to powered couplers. I can see how it works in my new E6 set - it is amazing. Does anybody know what is the symbol of bogies like in set  500-7000 Sanyo SHINKANSEN `Kodama:

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10163983

 

Or in 500 Tokaido/Sanyo Shinkansen `Nozomi` (Sayonara Series500 Nozomi):

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10116468

 

If anybody has one of above sets I would appreciate photo of the bogie to see if it is mounted the same way as in old sets. 

[cteno4]

Sinus,

 

ill look, somewhere on here the question of replacing with the new power couplers came up and i took some photos on i think it was the n700 compared to the old 700 w/o power coupler. ill search the forum later to see if i can find where or redig up the picts on the hard drive.

 

the power couplers go together differently than the hook and loop so you can connect them together, have to replace the whole train with them. i think the bogie to chassis connection was about the same.

 

one tough thing is getting enough of them. when the power couplers were first coming out doug coster was looking at getting enough of them to redo a train and it was going to be hard to get.

 

jeff

[cteno4]

ok found the n700 picts. looks like pretty much exactly the same internal connection with the pickups to springs in the same places.

 

of course bogie frame and coupler shanks will probably be a bit different.

 

jeff

[Sinus]

Jeff,

 

Thanks for the photos. It seems it will fit fine my old JR500. Any idea what is the part number?

 

Sinus

[cteno4]

Sinus,

 

Ill take a look for the n700 part number and the dr yellow to see if those are the same. dont have the new tomix 500 with all wheel pickup.

 

nariichi at modeltrainplus or dave at loco1hobbies might be able to figure this out and see about a bulk order for you. but would probably be wise to just buy one to make sure it works ok before investing an a whole train conversion! ill take a look at my old tomix 500 and see if its the sans pickup one and try putting a n700 power ring bogie on it to see if it works. with the skirting on the side you would never really see the truck frame, so maybe you can get away with other ones if necessary.

 

the all wheel pickup is the biggest thing to hit japanese trains since ive been collecting. they run beautifully. no power losses due to dirty track or long distance from feeders. i wish i had the patience to wait for the tomix e5/e6 to come out and the great deals were not offered on the kato e5/e6. both those i got at 35-45% off so just too tempting at the time, but they run very well so not really worth worrying about!

 

cheers

 

jeff

[Sinus]

Bogie for n700 should be fine I guess. Powered couplers are indeed great. There is no single blink while the train is running and also slow speed is very very smooth. CL+powered couplers are usually the reason for me to choose Tomix over Kato. If there is such choice of course ;)

 

I have already bought from Nariichi so will use this contact. Btw. where do you find deals 35-45% except ModelTrainPlus? I used to buy from HS in the past when they had better deals than nowadays, but recently moved to AmiAmi (20-25%). And if lucky to be in Japan then TamTam with their 30%. I hope they start selling overseas at some point.

 

Cheers,

Sinus

[cteno4]

it will be interesting to see if the n700 bogies can fit in the 500, its tight in there, but i suspect its the same truck!

 

the E5 main set was about 45% off at modeltrainstuff.com. kleins (the brick and mortar version of the store) our local big train shop that imports a bunch of kato japan trains every couple of years then fire sales off remnants after a year or so then few japanese things for 6-12 months then usually cycle repeats. then got the add on e5 at the odd lot sale at the shop up in mass that had bought out the internet train shop run by monks that had a bunch of odd stock (i suspect they bought out mokei imports when he retired, he had a big list of odd stock). then dave at loco1hobbies had a few of the e6 at like 34% off when they first came in. so the e5/e6 was all done on the cheap! when all 17 cars run together it runs very smoothly and plenty of power with two motor units. i was going to be patient and wait for the tomix, but the prices were just too tempting and at the time only the tomix e6 was announced and still on the way and tomix e5 nowhere in site...

 

dave at loco1hobby.net has been stocking and preordering most mainstream new stuff coming out at 20-25% off. fmodels gives a pretty standard 20% off japanese list (wo sales tax price) on most everything and mokoto san will try suppiers for your wish list. then modelstrainsplus has the great deals on old new stock and some used. hobbylinkjapan still has a few decent deals now and then and usually 20% off, decent backordering, and nice virtual shipping box you can build up a number of things in and easily ship in what ever combo you want.

 

ive only used amiami once but should start looking there more, discounts seem to have gotten better. site is just a bit clunky to move around in, so usually takes some digging... also so much of their stuff like tomytec is usually on backorder. have you done backordering with them?

 

cheers

 

jeff

[Sinus]

Thanks to the link posted in other thread, http://www.tomytec.co.jp/tomix/menu/index_prt.htm, I found out that power bogie symbol is 0483 and 0484. I don't see regular bogie listed yet. Hopefully, it is just a matter of time.

[JR 500系]

Thanks Sinus for the offer! 

 

I took out some of my spares and found i had a fair bit of wheel pickups and springs, but i think they're not Tomix, should be Kato. Can't remember where i got them from too... I tried installing them on the Tomix 500 but the wheels just can't fit in... 

 

I found thins link in Tomytec Tec station website regarding the 500 pickup trucks: http://www.tec-station.jp/shop/ProductDetail.do?sub_genre_id=10101&pid=0094

 

I think they're the correct one since the description wrote: 主な使用形式　５００系・７００-3000系・７００-7000系・８００系新幹線 

 

The part number is 0094, and i think i might still be able to find this somewhere. A set of two trucks (for one carriage) costs 900yen, so i think it's quite ok.

Edited December 15, 2013 by JR500 のぞみ

[Sinus]

Tomix 0094 is fine for sure, and as I wrote earlier it is good choice compared to the old system. Although, still much better is powered couplers and I think I will choose that option.

[KenS]

will be interesting to see if ken has thoughts as to using 15vdc input on the kato power pack.

 

I've been a bit busy of late, and well behind on my reading here. I just saw this.

 

I've never had occasion to take one of my Kato packs apart, so I never examined the circuitry. But, no time like the present, so out came the screwdriver (the screws are hidden under the glued-on rubber feet). And confusion set in.

 

It's an interesting circuit, and not one I'd seen before. The four big black diodes are a full-wave rectifier, but the big package on the heat sink appears to be a power transistor with the collector tied to the (+) side of the rectifier and the emitter tied to one of the AC sides of the rectifier, providing a controlled reverse path bypassing one diode of the rectifier. The base ties to the yellow wire from the output tap of the potentiometer, so it's the track power output level that's controlling the transistor's behavior.

 

I think what's going on is that the transistor is being used to cut out the "pulses" of half of the AC wave. Normally a rectifier circuit will use a capacitor to smooth out pulses, but those are conspicuously absent here. And I know from my oscilloscope that Kato lets half the pulses through, but clips the others, so that matches up with what it looks like this circuit is doing. If the pot output (track) gets too high relative to one half of the wave, the output is reduced to zero and the power dissipated as heat (hence the big metal heat sink). That doesn't happen on the other half of the wave's cycle.

 

Note: letting some of the pulses through creates a "pulsed" output, which provides for better low-speed operation.

 

My suspicion is that if you connected up a 15V DC wall-wart with a center-negative connector it would work fine (but without the pulses, so not quite as good as with an AC supply), but if you connected up one with a center-positive the transistor would block all power.  I might have that reversed though. Or completely wrong.  Googling about I can't find an example of a circuit like this (there are some interesting transistor-based rectifiers, but they're very different circuits).  I don't think you'd hurt the circuitry if you did it either way (the transistor's ratings seem well above what it would experience), but I can't say that for certain since I'm not entirely sure what's going on here.

 

The transistor on mine appears to be a BD911, although the one shown in one of the blogs linked earlier was a NEC 2SD560, which has somewhat different specs. The normal use for one of these would be in a power amplifier, but I don't believe that's what it's doing here.

 

Me, I'd stick with an AC wall-wart for a Kato pack. It's going to provide better low-speed operation. But if you can't do that, then using a 12-15V DC wall-wart transformer with the appropriate polarity is *probably* going to both be safe, and work.

[kvp]

Thanks for the info! (your site is always a great help for me in all areas of japanese modelling) Could you make a circuit diagram for the kato pack, including the accessory output? This solution is really interesting compared to the 3 terminal linear regulators what simple tomix packs, maerklin z and old lego is using and the pwm solution in tomix cl, rokuhan and lego pf packs.

[KenS]

I do plan to take a closer look at the pack and write up the circuit. Time is a bit short right now with the holidays though, so I may not get to it immediately.

 

Kato's solution looks like an old-school system designed back before you could get high-power silicon, which has been very lightly modified. Except for the single power-transistor to add the "pulsed power" feature, everything here would have looked normal in 1970.

 

Those would typically have just a transformer to drop AC down to the desired voltage, a full-wave rectifier made from individual power diodes (which you could get back in the 60's) to convert AC to DC and sometimes a capacitor across the output of the rectifier to smooth out the pulses of the AC wave, with a reversing switch to flip polarity and a circular potentiometer to drop the output voltage from its DC max down to zero for the throttle knob.

 

I actually built a 5V power supply when I was a kid (back in the 70's) using that approach, so that aspect of it is very familiar to me. You could make a power pack like this very cheaply if you wanted to, although Kato may have a patent on the transistor portion since I've never run across that before. However, there are better build-it-yourself "transistor throttle" designs around now if you want to build your own.

 

Except for the lone transistor, this circuit was a standard design back in the 1970's.  I have an old MRC 501 that uses the same base, although they did "pulsing" by switching off half the full-wave rectifier, a slightly different approach.

 

In the 1980s (I think; it might have been closer to the early 90's though), pack design started to change as high-power transistors and ICs became affordable. Most modern designs use more complex circuits, and can provide more features as a result, but I've never found the time to take any of those apart to figure out how they work.

 

I'm not sure when voltage regulators became affordable, but at some point people likely started adding those (another 3-pin package) to "regulate" the power output of the transformer.  Today you can buy "regulated" wall-warts that have that function built in, so if wall power varies +/- 10% (which it often does) your track power will stay stable rather than varying as it would have with old transformer-only designs. I'm not sure if Kato is using one (I don't want to take apart one of my wall-warts to check) or just not worried about +/- 1V variations in the output.

[KenS]

Okay, I was wrong about some of the wiring details, and particularly about the transistor.  I was also wrong about the way the pulsed power works, but I'll blame my old oscilloscope for that.  One of the reasons I replaced it was that it wasn't always very reliable. I was, however, right that you can use a DC transformer (wall-wart) with the Kato pack.

 

I found some time to re-check the circuit more carefully, and make some measurements with a multimeter and the new oscilloscope while using it.  See the two attached images: circuit diagram and scope trace.

 

Note: the scope trace is for a bit under 1/2 throttle with my test engine running at a low speed. Power to the track is about 2.4 Volts (RMS), although peak-to-peak the wave is around 6 volts ignoring the noise spikes.

 

So the transistor is just an amplifier, because it's being used with a low-current potentiometer.  Older packs, like my MRC, put power through a rheostat (two contacts, not three, and unused power entirely dissipated as heat).  Kato uses a pot (three contacts) to control the transistor, which lets power through (increasing current as the potentiometer is turned), but wastes relatively little.

 

But what's coming out is just the AC wave, half-flipped so it's a series of positive-going peaks rather than a sine wave (see scope trace).  I tried this out at a variety of throttle settings and with and without a loco running on the track, and it all worked the same way. The transistor isn't playing any role in the pulsed-power management. It just amplifies the pot output to vary the track voltage as the throttle is turned, from nothing up to the maximum (which is 13.85V DC per my multimeter, but the actual RMS value would be less than that).

 

And, because everything is working off the output sides of the rectifier, it matters not at all if the input side of the rectifier is AC or DC or what the polarity of a DC pack would be.  So yes, you can use a DC power supply with a Kato throttle. You just need a wall-wart of about 15 V DC with a 2.1mm output plug. A regulated one would be preferable to an unregulated one, but either would work.

 

Edit: note that it needs to provide enough amps to run the trains. That's probably not less than 500 mA (0.5A). Kato's standard pack can provide about 1 Amp, and that's likely a safe maximum, although the circuit breaker should protect you if you use a larger one.

 

In fact, a 12V DC one will work just fine. I know, I did it.  My test loco ran slower, but it did run at an acceptable speed.

 

However, since the "pulsed" output power is just the pulsed input wave at reduced voltage, with a DC wall-wart you get constant-voltage, not pulsed, DC to the track.  So low-speed running won't be as good with DC as it is with Kato's standard AC pack.

 

Also note that the accessory output is exactly the output of the rectifier bridge, our about 1V less than the input power. So while Kato marks it as "12V", it's really close to 14 V DC with their standard supply, and it's pulsed rather than constant-voltage as well, although that doesn't matter for most things.

Edited December 23, 2013 by KenS

[cteno4]

Ken,

 

Thanks much, figured you would tear into this. So it seem to behave like I thought, I just did not consider the pulsed result from the ac.

 

Jeff

[JR 500系]

Wow KenS! 

 

You must have some electrical training! That was some serious electrical diagram! 

 

I can't do so well, in fact my electrical diagram-ing sucks and my physics teacher hates me... 

 

However, i did ask my electrician worker to assist me to create a 'Third-Party Transformer' system for me, since our electricity is 230V here and the Kato power pack uses 110V. Please see below pictures...

 

A transformer was used to take in 230V and output 15V, which was what the Kato power pack needed in (well, that's what it states behind the power pack where the plug from the adapter goes in)... 

 

The output was two wires connecting to two similar plug that fits into the Kato power pack. The voltage was tested with something that tested electricity - forgot the name of that appliance (that's why my physics teacher hates me) and both came out to have 15V 2Amp. Now is to bring home this conception to test it out on the Kato power pack and tracks.... Hoped it works! 

 

If it works, this saves me hundreds of cash buying and buying portable electrical converter adapters that kept burning up and tripping my Kato power pack... 

[cteno4]

Jr how do the trains run with the 15vdc?

 

Jeff

[kvp]

Thank you! This diagram clears up lots of things. The circuit looks almost like the standard throttle used by most european modell train makers, except they usually use an LM317 voltage regulator ic with built in termal protection instead of the single transistor with a fuse. I've seen this in marklin z (10V), trix n (12V) and lego (9V) throttles. Interesting is that some of them were shipped with both ac and dc adapters under the same catalog number.

 

Now is to bring home this conception to test it out on the Kato power pack and tracks.

Just one advice: Please be careful with the custom adapter, since the 230V is present on the terminal screws, so please package the terminal strip into something fireproof and insulating, because anything conductive could contact the 230V screws or worse, short them to the output and that means 230V on the rails.

Edited December 23, 2013 by kvp

[brill27mcb]

Hi Ken,

 

I've never heard of this form of output called "pulse" power.

 

Rectifying AC with just one diode (leaving just the positive or negative half-waves) is usually called "half-wave rectification."

 

Using four diodes (or a functionally-equivalent single packaged unit) as a bridge rectifier to flip one polarity of have-waves over to the other polarity, creating constant half-waves without gaps between them, is usually called "full-wave rectification." It looks like the Kato power pack is in this category.

 

Adding a capacitor to smooth out the sine waves then is usually called "filtered full-wave rectification" (or "smoothed").

 

The term "pulse power" is usually reserved to describe a more elaborate electronic process to create spikes or square-waves, often at a different frequency than the commercial power grid, and with a different (or even variable) pulse width. This is what "pulse width modulation" (PWM) power supplies do, and I understand that DCC decoders also use this technique. In his pioneering TAT electronic throttles of the 1960-70s, "Model Railroader" magazine editor Lynn Westcott determined that short square pulses at about 40 Hz frequency worked best with model locomotive motors of that era, to start them smoothly and slowly from a stop.

 

Using an old-fashioned simple rheostat to control locomotive speeds is basically creating a voltage splitter, with the rheostat resistance and the motor resistance in series splitting the 12 volts between them. When two locomotives have different motor types and characteristics, or when a motor's resistance changes over its speed range, the voltage the locomotive sees at a given rheostat setting will vary. This why you can't control the speed of an N-gauge locomotive with older HO power packs with rheostats -- you crack the dial slightly and the loco takes off at near full speed, because its resistance is higher than an HO motor's, so the low resistance of the rheostat has little effect in reducing the track voltage. One of the great benefits of using a low-power potentiometer with transistor amplification, instead of a rheostat, is that it is far less affected by the resistance/impedance of the electric motor. Electronic throttles with transistors or regulators eliminate this issue, giving us better, more consistent speed control.

 

This is an interesting discussion. Thanks for decoding the Kato power pack! By the way, I really like the smooth dial action of the Kato power packs. For some reason, they have a very light, smooth "liquid" feel to them as you turn the dial, unlike any other I have tried.

 

Rich K.

[JR 500系]

Jr how do the trains run with the 15vdc? Jeff

 

Hi Jeff: 

 

Well the input printed on the Kato power pack says 15V 1.5Amp, so i kinda find it wierd why it wasn't 12V too... 

 

Thanks KVP for the advice! Yap gotta beware of that raw connection...

 

So i went ahead and test it, and boy did it work well! The pictures shown below shows the step down transformer connected to two cords, that connects to two of my Kato power packs, delivering good power to them both. Both works fine, but there's lotsa flickering and i have to accredited that to the dirty Kato tracks which i haven't been running trains on for a LLOOONNNGGG time unlike my Tomix ones. Overall i'm very happy i have found a cheaper and long term solution to long time running my trains without the worry of this power surge and tripping again and need to buy another current converter!