Seibu Tokorozawa Station

[bikkuri bahn]

I have long ignored the Seibu Railway, perhaps because it's located in an area far from my usual haunts in southern Tokyo/Kanagawa Pref.  However my growing interest in the shrinking number of flat junctions as well as the recent establishment of through running on the Toyoko Line have sparked some curiousity in this major suburban railway.

 

Tokorozawa is the heart of this railway, being the junction of the Ikebukuro and Shinjuku Lines.  The view from the south end is especially interesting- in the following video, the left side is the Ikebukuro Line, with the flyover in the distance, the middle are layover tracks, and the far right is the Shinjuku Line.  All of this is crossed by a road in the foreground, making for an interesting train watching scene:

 

The following zooms into the Ikebukuro Line portion during the evening rush.  You can see the variety of rolling stock that uses this line, including Tokyo Metro stock.  Station announcements as well as destination indicators on the trains makes for easy identification:

[bill937ca]

I've heard  the Seibu Shinjuku and Ikebukruo lines have separate underlying ownership and equipment never moves from one line to the other. Anyone know if this is true?

 

With Tokyu providing through routing there could be baseball specials from Yokohama to Seibukyujo-mae and on to the Seibu Dome. But Cerberus might want to abandon this and apparently wants to get rid of the Seibu Lions. 

[bikkuri bahn]

Bill, all I know is that Seibu Railway's antecedents are the Musashino Rlwy. (Ikebukuro Line) and the Kawagoe Rlwy. (the initial portion of the Shinjuku Line). The two railways interchanged at Tokorozawa. That Seibu is an amalgamation of various big and small lines is why there is such a dense network of routes in its operating area, which is also why Cerberus wants to axe many of them to increase "shareholder value".

 

Regarding baseball specials:

Edited April 30, 2013 by bikkuri bahn

[Mudkip Orange]

Any link on specific lines they're looking to cut?

[bikkuri bahn]

Any link on specific lines they're looking to cut?

The biggest is the Chichibu Line.  I believe the Kokubunji Line and Tamako Line were also proposed.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2013/03/27/national/saitama-urges-seibu-to-keep-chichibu-line-open/#.UX_MIUqFn3I

 

[bill937ca]

Any link on specific lines they're looking to cut?

 

http://ajw.asahi.com/article/economy/business/AJ201303270056

 

These are the five lines Cerberus wants closed. They have also demanded the sale of Seibu Lions baseball team.

 

Chichibu Line

Yamaguchi Line

Tamagawa Line

Kokubunji Line

Tamako Line

 

The Tamako and Kokubunji lines are single track and fairly busy by Japanese standards judging by posts in other boards.

 

Seibu station passenger counts (Japanese), 2011:

 

http://www.seibu-group.co.jp/railways/company/business/railway-business/data/year/__icsFiles/afieldfile/2012/05/31/2011joukou.pdf

Edited April 30, 2013 by bill937ca

[Densha]

Anybody care to explain what and why the cutting of lines you talk is about?

[bill937ca]

Anybody care to explain what and why the cutting of lines you talk is about?

 

 

Cerberus is an US investment firm which has bought Seibu shares over-the-counter and is making noises that profits are not high enough, shareholder value is not high enough and it wants this cut and that cut.  Cut is code for abandoned. In the US there are no private passenger railways providing mass transit. Cerberus probably wants to wash its hands of rail lines even if they make a profit for ideological reasons.

 

 It should be noted that while Cerberus can invest in Western companies and get its way claiming shareholder value is not high enough this probably won't work in Japan.  Japanese companies are run for stakeholders not shareholders.

 

American stock market investor Boone Pickens tried something like this before with a company called Koito Manufacturing and part of a Toyota supplier keiretsu (aligned relationships). Boone Pickens obtained his stock from a Japanese businessman who made a habit of extorting large payments from companies for their shares.  If the Koito did not meet his price he would sell to an overseas buyer. Pickens came along demanded all kinds of changes in the company, seats on board of directors etc. The Japanese see these Western investors as a destabilizing element and disruptive to a very productive business. Over three years Pickens failed to get his way and lost half of the value of his shares.

 

Source: Marketing in Japan, Ian Melville.

 

I think Cerberus will meet the same fate, with some minor exceptions which might be convenient for the current Seibu management. Then Cerberus can join the list of failures in Japan along with Kodak, Porsche and T. Boone Pickens.

Edited May 5, 2013 by bill937ca

[Densha]

Aha thanks for explaining Bill!

I already thought that Japanese companies found customers the most important. I couldn't really believe it when you said they were abandoning lines with good number of passengers (I'm sure compared to some rural line in Hokkaido it's a good amount right?), also what would they have to do with their rolling stock in such a case?

[railsquid]

I have long ignored the Seibu Railway, perhaps because it's located in an area far from my usual haunts in southern Tokyo/Kanagawa Pref.  However my growing interest in the shrinking number of flat junctions as well as the recent establishment of through running on the Toyoko Line have sparked some curiousity in this major suburban railway.

 

I am doomed to commute on Seibu... Tokorozawa Station always screws my mind because the Shinjuku and Ikebukuro lines are facing in opposite directions, if you see what I mean.

 

Anyway if it's flat junctions you're after, the network of branch lines at the westen end of the Seibu Shinjuku Line

Edited May 5, 2013 by railsquid

[railsquid]

I've heard  the Seibu Shinjuku and Ikebukruo lines have separate underlying ownership and equipment never moves from one line to the other. Anyone know if this is true?

 

I've never heard anything about separate ownership, and never seen anything to indicate that might be the case. Operationally the two lines (amd associated branches) are pretty much separate, though there is some limited interoperation (e.g. Shinjuku to Seibu Kyujomae). I guess they transfer stock between lines as needed, though I get the impression the Shinjuku Line gets the older stuff.

[ToniBabelony]

A guy from Cerberus came on the TV today and promised not to sell off railway lines or the Lions baseball team. Good news for that part of the company, but what will be done instead? Retail? Housing?

[Nick_Burman]

Cerberus is an US investment firm which has bought Seibu shares over-the-counter and is making noises that profits are not high enough, shareholder value is not high enough and it wants this cut and that cut.  Cut is code for abandoned. In the US there are no private passenger railways providing mass transit. Cerberus probably wants to wash its hands of rail lines even if they make a profit for ideological reasons.

 

 It should be noted that while Cerberus can invest in Western companies and get its way claiming shareholder value is not high enough this probably won't work in Japan.  Japanese companies are run for stakeholders not shareholders.

 

American stock market investor Boone Pickens tried something like this before with a company called Koito Manufacturing and part of a Toyota supplier keiretsu (aligned relationships). Boone Pickens obtained his stock from a Japanese businessman who made a habit of extorting large payments from companies for their shares.  If the Koito did not meet his price he would sell to an overseas buyer. Pickens came along demanded all kinds of changes in the company, seats on board of directors etc. The Japanese see these Western investors as a destabilizing element and disruptive to a very productive business. Over three years Pickens failed to get his way and lost half of the value of his shares.

 

Source: Marketing in Japan, Ian Melville.

 

I think Cerberus will meet the same fate, with some minor exceptions which might be convenient for the current Seibu management. Then Cerberus can join the list of failures in Japan along with Kodak, Porsche and T. Boone Pickens.

 

Why on earth people still believe in outfits like Cerberus? They were the folks who in great measure plunged the world into the financial crisis we are in today...they ought to be completely discredited, period.

 

If Seibu (and that goes for most of the Japanese metropolitan private railways and a few rural ones, also) were a boned fish, the railway part of it would be the bone and the other parts would be the meat. Take the bone away (as Cerberus wants to do) and what is left is meat which would be unable to swim on its own...

 

However one thing that I've read (which might be an misunderstanding, Google Translate oblige) elsewhere is the fact that Seibu is mulling closing Tokorozawa shops completely - the facilities would be moved to Ahina off the Kawagoe line, where Seibu already owns land (the former gravel pits) and where there is a disused branch line (the rails are still there) leading into it.

 

 

Cheers NB

[bikkuri bahn]

is the fact that Seibu is mulling closing Tokorozawa shops completely - the facilities would be moved to Ahina off the Kawagoe line, where Seibu already owns land (the former gravel pits)

 

That's interesting.  Certainly that would free up the Tokorozawa land parcel to be developed into something that produces revenue rather than being a cost center- thus aiding the bottom line, which I suppose what Cerberus would approve of, hah...  A bit sad though, considering that Seibu once built their rolling stock there, and also some rolling stock for export- passenger coaches for some African country back in the sixties.