Modeling the RoW

[Blevins18]

I just wanted an opinion from everyone. My layout is going to have a private right of way like the Toden Arakawa LIne and I am trying to decide what kind of track would be better. Kato unitrack is more available to me but I'm not against exploring other systems. All advice/ opinions are welcome!

[3railgreg]

My new layout is similar. If you live in US, Kato is by far the easiest to get. Tomix also makes great track, especially for tram work. It can be found here in the States, but more common in Japan. I went with Kato mainly due to availability, and have been happy with the results, first time I have used it by the way.

Others here will chime in with their opinion I am sure. Have fun with whatever you choose!! 

[Blevins18]

I'll probably go with Kato. I found a large amount of Kato track that I'd bought still in its packaging today so I have it on hand, plus my local hobby shop has a lot of it. I still want to know what everyone else is doing that isn't doing 100% street running.

 

I'm freelancing a modular tram layout that's going to have a Toden Arakawa feel but isn't going to be a spot on prototype.

[bill937ca]

There isn't much street track on the Toden Arakawa and no 90 degree crossings.  I'd say its a toss up.

[Blevins18]

That's what I've been noticing. There's lots of good videos on YouTube of tram running on the Toden so I guess I'll stick to unitrack. The only other thing I might do is use street-type track for the tram shed but I'm still in the early planning stages of this layout.

[bill937ca]

As Google Streets won't be of much help with the Toden Arakawa line, this web page may be useful.

 

http://www.tawatawa.com/densha3/page003.html

 

Here`s a map of the line.

 

http://www.kotsu.metro.tokyo.jp/toden/map/index.html

Edited February 24, 2013 by bill937ca

[velotrain]

I don't understand why you wouldn't just use flextrack.  If you look at the photos on the posted site, the track is flat on the ground, with no banked roadbed.

 

If you plan to model a line with this sort of feel, why would you want to make it look like it has mainline track?

 

One other reason - you'll notice some gentle curves in the photos, and there's at least one beautiful S-curve on this line. 

Flextrack can depict these very well, but even if you could represent these with sectional track, it just isn't going to look very good - certainly nothing like the proto.

 

 

[kvp]

Actually the last photo looks exactly like what the Tomix wide track is for, including the S curve and the flat roadbed. Kato double track also looks very similar, but it's a bit higher than Tomix. Flex track is good if someone likes or at least knows well how to ballast track. Roadbed track is for people who want to get a layout up and running as soon as possible and still prefer it to look nice.

 

Kato track is easier to get, but Tomix track has more variety and better tram support, including spring loaded ballasted turnouts and more flexible street trackage.

[velotrain]

Actually the last photo looks exactly like what the Tomix wide track is for, including the S curve and the flat roadbed.

 

Well, one big problem with that is the TWT does not have ballast, being meant to represent street trackage.  So, anyone using it for this application would still need to ballast. 

 

On top of that, it's just not going to look right, as the rails are buried in the "street".  Sure, it might be faster and easier, but if you really want the look of a PRoW line, there's no way you'll ever get it with snap-track - especially using "street track".  Ballasting flextrack is not an advanced science; there are many YT videos demonstrating it, and even on how to make your own ballast dispenser / spreader - for N scale no less.  The trickiest part is working around turnouts, and that shouldn't be an issue here.

 

For me, the essence of the S-curve photo is the graceful, fluid line of the rail - and you'll never achieve that with snap-track.  With flex you could even replicate the slight superelevation, and add the third rail if you really wanted to get to that level of detail.  As the old saying goes, you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear.

 

I am NOT bashing snap-track, only suggesting that it has its appropriate uses, and I see no reason to go with it when it's totally unsuited to the situation.

 

Also - I have to think that anyone wanting to model the Toden Arakawa or any other PRoW line, is largely doing so due to the inherent charm of these lines, and I'm suggesting that a large component of that is the very nature of the track, along with the alley-like look with the tightly-enclosing structures.

 

Charles

[cteno4]

Charles,

 

Have you done a lot of n scale flex track and ballasting? To get very good results with each takes skill and practice. Making ballast really look right is an art. Not only spreading it you then have to sculpt it then fix it in place w.o it looking odd due to the fixing. While doing ok ballasting is not super hard, nice ballasting takes a lot of work and some talent. I find that most folks ok ballasting looks about as good as unitrak or finetrack, or it can be worse as the uniformity of the unitrak or finetrack is usually first noted by the minds eye then, sort of taken out of the picture (falls int the perceived scenery column with the uniformity). whereas on ok ballasting you can have sections all over the place that can look odd and keep grabbing the mind's eye all the time and hurting the mind's eye's overall impression.

 

Also doing good flex track work takes a fair bit of time and skill and will probably come out running about as good as unitrak or finetrack, where as ok flex track work will run worse and be a real pain to get int better running shape. This is super critical with points and then the ballasting of them!

 

Before someone jumps int flex track and ballasting I always recommend they buy a few pieces and do a small section and ballast it to see if its for them. I've seen a lot of folks start with flex track and get really frustrated with it and ruins their layout plans.

 

Jeff

Edited July 25, 2014 by cteno4

[velotrain]

Jeff -

 

 

 

 

 

Well - yes and no.  I have with HOn30 track, which while being the same gauge, I realize has larger and more widely spaced ties, thereby making it easier.

 

 

 

 

 

Much of my issue here is a question of the track profile, feeling that the hump of sectional pre-ballasted track is going to kill the whole sense of it representing the Toden Arakawa Line.  I'd almost rather see flex - or unballasted sectional track - laid on painted, coarse sandpaper, and I'm sure there are other intermediate options.

 

 

 

 

Given a realistic self-assessment of my own skill levels, I'd disagree with "doing good flex track work takes a fair bit of time and skill".  It does require careful attention and some patience (not a quality I'm known for).  I might say that I see it as part of the distinction between being a modeler and someone who messes around with RTR track, rolling stock and structures - sort of small-scale Lionel.

 

 

 

A large part of it for me is aesthetic.  For most of us it's pleasing to watch any train run, but I think that increases multi-fold when it's through something like that S-curve.  Even if you only set up the tram tracks periodically, a small section of flex could easily be mounted on a base that would also include poles and other line-side details, with Kato (or Tomix) transition track at the end, perhaps "camouflaged" at road crossings. 

 

Here's one example:  http://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=28999.0

 

 

 

Again, I have no issue with anyone running model trains in whatever manner they wish to.  I just can't conceive of trying to model a line like the Toden Arakawa by using track that is all wrong for it.  I'm not at all a rivet counter, but just see that as a deal breaker.  You could use sectional track and say it's the Toden Arakawa, but that isn't at all the same thing as "modeling" the Toden Arakawa.

 

 

 

Charles

 

[velotrain]

I just thought of another option to avoid ballasting, triggered by finding this forum thread:

 

http://www.nscale.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-30257.html

 

Use cork roadbed - perhaps HO scale in this case.  Instead of tearing it apart and forming a hump, put it down level, two strips next to each other.  Use a metal file cleaner or similar tool to pummel the cork, chopping it up (just a bit) and creating a ballast-like texture.  Spray paint to a color of your choice (maybe dappling a second color with a small brush), and then affix the flextrack. 

 

Here's another technique - used for T track, that might provide a ballast-like texture in N scale:

 

http://jessestmodels.blogspot.com/2013_01_01_archive.html

[cteno4]

Charles,

 

Have to disagree with you from years of my own experience and watching a lot of other folks doing flex and ballasting. It is so easy to miss the mark with it and when you do it will just keep catching the eye. It's also one of the big frustration points I've seen in modelers. Proper n scale ballast is very fine stuff and can be tedious to shape and very easily disturbed with fixing methods, this is why I think there is a jump in skill and time needed to do good work vs ok work. I just think most of what I would call ok work is very distracting to doing good modeling that you seem to be asking for.

 

Modeling is a lot about playing with the viewer's minds eye. If done right you can "model" something with a fantastic effect w.o going super perfect. Same goes you can try to go super perfect and miss the mark big time in the overall mind's eye' impression.

 

Larger radius fine track could get you the s curve here.

 

Jeff

[cteno4]

Charles,

 

In n scale I think trying to rough up cork and paint it to simulate ballast is going to take some pretty detailed work to look like proper ballast work.

 

The t gauge technique might look ok, but the dusted foam roadbed is going to look super angular and very regular. Not sure how it will size up in n scale as well. The scenery effects you do in t are very different as its a third the size and its down to the sale, that you need like a 2' scale relief detail before it would ever show up at 1/450 scale. That's why in t scale you can get, away with printed buildings and such that don't work well at n scale.

 

Each scale has its different limits and things to be focused on to get the right effects.

 

Jeff

[velotrain]

Jeff -

 

 

 

I have no idea what "dusted foam" refers to.  My basic interest here was the butyl rubber, which would be laid down as a flat surface - not angular.  Among other things, I was thinking that you could hand press ballast into it between and on the side of the tracks with little risk of it getting where it might catch wheels.

 

 

 

I guess we just have different experiences with flex in general.

 

 

 

> Modeling is a lot about playing with the viewer's minds eye.

 

 

 

While that's true, I'm probably more interested in my own experience.  I model because I find it creative, stimulating and satisfying.  I do things to satisfy my own perceptual requirements, and not someone else viewing it.  That's why, having seen photos and video of the Toden Arakawa, I couldn't consider modeling it with anything other than flextrack.  I could live with crude paper structures alongside it, but using humped track would ruin it for me.  YMMV.

 

 

 

Charles

 

[cteno4]

Charles,

 

They were dusting the rubber roadbed with weathering powders to create the ballast effect. T scale lets you play like this as the eye would never see the individual bits at scale! That's what I love about t scale you can do some scenes in things just not at all practical in other scales!

 

Yes you are only playing with your own mind's eye then, but none the less it is susceptible to the distractions, memories, etc like other viewers may have, similar principals apply.

 

I was only being forceful on the flex and ballast issue as I thought you were wanting high levels of quality and visual modeling. My point was that really good level comes at cost you must be willing to pay.

 

Jeff

[kvp]

 

Well, one big problem with that is the TWT does not have ballast, being meant to represent street trackage. So, anyone using it for this application would still need to ballast. 

Tomix wide track is ballasted, but in a wide and shallow form, like on the Arakawa. You are mixing it up with tram tracks, that are paved in. Picture: (normal track in front, two wide tracks in the back)

[velotrain]

Thanks for the image kvp.  I've found the associated article on the jtrains.wordpress site.

 

I've clearly been wrongly equating Tomix Wide Track with Wide Tram Track, not realizing how different they were.

 

My apologies to you for my ignorant statement - that you've quoted. 

 

I can now see why you'd suggest that the T-A line would be an ideal application of this track, and I read that the curves are even super-elevated. 

I don't know if there is any provision for vertical easement between this and the straights.

 

My measurements indicate the proto curves are about 300' radius, which would give some 600mm in N scale.

 

I see that the wide track is available in 541mm radius, which is reasonably close.   Would you know what the PC designation represents?

 

I would still personally use flex for appearance reasons, but the Tomix 541mm radius would certainly do a presentable job - although perhaps with some 3D ballast sparingly applied on top of the molded plastic.

 

Charles

[katoftw]

Tomix do a C605 piece.

 

I think before shooting down more ideas/suggestions to you. Maybe have a look on the tomix website/ebay/plazajapan/hobbysearch website and see what tomix is actually available to use. That way you will be on the same page as everyone else. And you ability to plan and converse wont be hindered.

[kvp]

I don't know if there is any provision for vertical easement between this and the straights.

My measurements indicate the proto curves are about 300' radius, which would give some 600mm in N scale.

I see that the wide track is available in 541mm radius, which is reasonably close. Would you know what the PC designation represents?

 

There are easement pieces that come in pairs, so you can get in to and out of superelevation with them. PC means precast concrete, this is the type of the ties. Currently there are 4 types of track pieces: wooden ties, concrete ties, concrete slabs and road surface (for trams). Wooden and concrete ties are available both in normal and wide track format. For the Arakawa, the easiest would be to use the wide track with concrete ties and stain 2/3 of them on sections that are not fully renewed. Wide track also comes with fence and matching overhead kits.

[velotrain]

I think before shooting down more ideas/suggestions to you.

 

- MY - ability to converse?