Great time to start my layout (with help, of course!)

[john_ibw]

I am stuck! And I need help...

 

A lot has happened in the last 4-5 years. I have moved houses more times than I care to remember. Been posted overseas and had to travel a bit with work. And a few other significant developments, including job changes. 

 

Coming back to the topic now. I have been struggling to design and finalise a basic layout and start work on it. Actually, it is 2 layouts. But, the OO layout can wait and the N Scale Japanese layout can take priority as I have invested heavily in it, have been a member here and though not active as others, I am constantly browsing the topics here. I am now stationed back in my home location, work is good, travel ceased, have time to spare, have trains, structures, scenery, tools, track, DCC components and have a separate room to dedicate to trains! 

 

What do I not have? A layout design to start work. And I am stuck and constantly putting it off. I am also curious to also know if others have been in a situation where they have kept stalling the start of a layout? I started one a while ago but had to stop work thanks to a house move and relocation. My dream layout, based on the elements I already posses, is a mutli-level layout with a overhead station, incorporating trams and a yard. I have about 14 feet by 4 to 6 feet to dedicate for the layout. I may be able to add a 6 by 4 feet section to one end making it an L shaped.

 

I know it is a great time for me to start work. I am just not getting past the initial scare and starting work. I was hoping to get a little nudge from folks here by way of questions and suggestions and get through the planning and developing a layout design...and continued support as I progress through the other stages...

[Davo Dentetsu]

Heh, welcome to our world. :D

[Bernard]

Hi John  -  First off do you want this as a permanent layout or do you want it modular in case there are more moves in your future? With 14'x4'x6' you can make a nice sized layout but be careful of the 4' part, you are going to have to reach across to do work on it. (laying track, scenery, access to derailed trains, etc. First off, get the blueprint for your layout design....you can determine from that want materials you will need. If part of the problem is getting started, I suggest making your bench work simple, a basic bench/table. One you start the bench work that can motivate you to continue. I also suggest using foam insulation boards on top of your bench work. It will be easy to carve out terrain like lakes, streams, etc or build up hills, mountains, etc....again it's a fast way to get started. Since you want a multi-level layout I recommend using Woodland Scenic risers, it will make the assembly quick, easy and accurate. There are a lot of other things you can do to make your building quick and easy but I just listed a few.

Good luck :)

[ianlaw]

If you have a problem visualising what you want and you have track, why not just start laying down some track on the floor to get a feel for the space you have and what you can do. I see many people here stuck in the planning stage. Stop planning start building. :)

[john_ibw]

If you have a problem visualising what you want and you have track, why not just start laying down some track on the floor to get a feel for the space you have and what you can do. I see many people here stuck in the planning stage. Stop planning start building. :)

 

Are you reading my mind through the pc? :) I am sitting starting at the pc running AnyRail and thinking maybe i should use the floor to lay the tracks and test some configurations! Thanks! I think i need to just do that...

[john_ibw]

Bernard, I am thinking a semi-permanent layout. If a move is absolutely necessary I need the larger sections to be about 6 by 4 feet. I am fine if some track and scenery needs to replaced. I am not thinking a fully modular exhibition kind though. I will use foam, but more the kind that is readily available here in India. Woodland scenic risers is not feasible, mainly because it is not readily available and I do not think the import hassle plus costs associated is affordable. I understand accuracy, but I need to figure an alternative in place of the risers. And yes, I have started on the structures and lighting to accelerate once the layout takes some form and benchwork is done.

 

 

 

 

 

[cteno4]

John,

 

this is really really common out there with modelers, so you are in good company! 

 

if your plan is pretty much set then its just jumping into starting the build.

 

big question are you planning sectional, flex track, or hand laid? big big difference on time scales and how to maybe go about it.

 

sounds like its sectional for you, then i would start buying a lot of the track and either get your basic benchwork in or set up some old doors on saw horses and start building a temp setup of the basic design. this will give you a good feel for the track and issues it might present you and a chance to fiddle with any fine points in the track plan quickly. also will get you running trains and keep you going. you can also start to plop down any buildings you have to start getting some idea of scenery. others you can mock up quickly with some cardboard and then start scenery planning with crumpled paper and masking tape. this really helps at this stage in the design and also to keep you excited.

 

floor is ok to play, but it puts you at a very odd angle to fiddle with a layout design as you are looking at it from almost straight above and its too close to how you are working on the computer. getting it up to the level that it will be at is a big help in getting all your sight lines to track figured out. this is something that folks totally foget about all the time when using track planning software. when its up closer to eye level you are looking at the track at a 0 to 45 degree down elevation (depending on bench height and if you are standing or sitting) and parts will disappear behind others. this is good and you want to plan those out well and get interesting views of the back ground areas thru the foreground areas. this is where the cardboard cutouts and crumpled paper can really help the final planning steps before you start nailing track down (if you are going to nail it down that is!). its also really really fun to do and very fast! again anything to keep your mind active on the final goal and not get bogged down at a step really helps.

 

one of the biggest stall points for folks is to start laying track and get stuck somewhere in the middle w/o any running trains for a long time. can be a real killer. try to plan work in ways so that you can keep the trains running as much as possible as it does help to take a break and play with the trains some!

 

if you are going flex track or hand laid its a much longer process usually for the construction and if you have not done a layout before then i would caution against doing them for your first. section is a great way to start and get started quickly and so much more fogiving. flex while you can twiddle with all perfect easements and curves to fit the layout, is a real bit of work to get running well right out of the gate. its the sort of thing where you learn a lot of lessons as you do it that someone could have told you about but you just never get it until you bump your head on it. hand laid is really for those who have a large amount of patience and skill and something you need to work up to.

 

sectional as you mentioned is really important for moving. this has ruined many a great layout with a move!

 

keep us posted!

 

cheers

 

jeff

[john_ibw]

Jeff, 

 

It is mostly sectional for me. I already have some track. At least, enough to get started. I also have 10 pieces of flex track, which I was planning to use in the background for the longer sections on the layout. Good point about the track laying in sections and have them wired running some trains. Never thought of that.

 

About the floor, I did not think about the viewing angle before this. Somehow, I was looking at it much like you said. Like watching the pc. You are right that I will miss the elevations and changes to that can certainly effect scenery and structure placements. I will remember that. 

 

I am going to see if I can source some material (boards / doors etc.) to have a basic bench up to start placements and initial track planning. 

 

Thanks all!!! I am already beginning to get into the 'zone', if you can call it that. I am really encouraged by your responses. And good to know that I am not the only one having to need the nudge to start :)

 

 

 

 

[KenS]

When you say "multi-level", do you mean layers of track (viaduct, street and underground) or do you mean a multi-level layout with two boards, connected via a helix or something?  I don't think you have room for the latter; a helix for N is going to be around 3 feet across at a minimum.

 

You also said that you want an overhead station, trams and a yard.  The first question that needs to be answered is: what kind of trains. Short ones, or long ones?  Passenger only, or freight?  Shinkansen, commuter, or both?

 

With the space you have, sizing platforms for much more than six cars is going to leave little room for the trains to actually run.  Not a problem if your focus is shorter trains, or you're willing to "compress" 10-car commuters or 12-16 car shinkansen into 6-car trains, but make that decision up front and pick a platform length. That will drive a lot of the track placement decisions (also keep in mind that Shinkansen cars are longer than commuters, so six of one may be five of the other).

 

One station to look to for inspiration is Oji in Tokyo.  This has overhead Shinkansen and commuter, plus ground level trams (complete with street-running) of the Toden Arakawa line.

 

Here's a map reference to look at, and a particularly nice photo showing track at three levels above the street (I believe the trams run below the lower layer of track in the photo).

[inobu]

John,

 

You are getting good direction from Bernard and Ian (Did not see all the other input til after) as it is experience talking. There is one more factor that you should take into consideration.

 

The disconnect between visual interpretation (how you see things in your mind) with Computer rendering (what you plan out in PC) and your actual Scale reference (Your prior experience). If you have always modeled in OO

then your Visual interpretation and Scale reference has prior knowledge. One problem you may run into moving into N Scale is the reference disconnect because you will almost double the amount of devices (layout building ) that you need to create.

 

This is where Ian suggestion helps out. Laying out the track on the floor of your allocated space will start to give you a connection between the three components. At that point you can start to formulate the bench work outline and address the access factor that Bernard was alluding to.  

 

One problem that people don't realize is your mind only takes snap shots of events and omits details or the continuation aspect.

 

It is the continuation or lack of continuity that forces the designer in to a creative loop. 

 

Another thing to take into consideration is the moving factor. If you will have to move it make it modular. 

 

Inobu

 

 

I like free standing layout as it eliminates backdrops, gives more accessibility is can be really mobile. 

Edited February 10, 2013 by inobu

[cteno4]

john,

 

you will even find your track plan may change once you get it to your regular viewing angle. 

 

one other thing that mocking up the bench work at height helps with is to determine what your max working depth of benchwork will be! some folks cant stand to reach in more than like 18", others can tolerate 36" or more. the deeper it is the harder it is and the more you have to think about making your bench work support part of all of  your weight to work on things in the back. if you do do it in sections of course you can have it broken up when doing major scenery work etc, but usually breaking apart this kind of semi permanent layout with larger sections is not something you would want to do much. 

 

also think about if you are going to mainly stand or sit in the long run with the layout. a nice adjustable height roll around chair can be a nice way to play with the layout and get a better street level view as well as work on things if you can lift it up higher as well. have to think about having a beer and sitting there and watching your trains go round. a friend says he cleans the track of his large layout with red wine. he pulls out the cleaning car and start is up and has a glass or two of red wine as the cleaning train goes around and thus cleaned with red wine as w/o the wine he wouldnt do it...

 

flex will save a tad of money sometimes, but once you work the roadbed costs and all your time to lay it it comes out the same as sectional. big difference is that you could do different tie style and also have fewer joints to go clicky clack if that bothers you over large straight runs.

 

check out any used building material places for old hollow core interior doors - great temp surfaces. sometimes you can get plastic foldup saw horses on sale for like $5 each. or even use cardboard boxes to support the doors (some produce boxes are extra sturdy, very uniform and interlock to stack, its not that much weight to plop some track down.

 

speaking of bench support think of having your bench work supported with a strong but minimal framework that is as open as possible. this is really nice when you have to be under it doing wiring and such. then you have nice open spaces to store boxes or roll around storage units that you can easily pull out to get at something. using cabinets under the layout can be sturdy and pretty but not as practical to get into to work on stuff and its a pain to get into them for storage as well. nice to pull out the two or three roll arounds with stuff in them for scenery to have near where you are currently working!

 

once you start to see even the beginnings of this start to come together you will really find yourself moving into a different gear!

 

keep us posted, start a thread with your progress, alway fun to watch how layouts come together. folks always wished they had a photo history of the layout coming together after they finish. fun thing now days is to buy a little $1 tripod head and bolt it down some where in the room that gets a good view then put your digital camera on it once a week and take the same snap. fun to see the time lapse later of it all come together!

 

cheers

 

jeff

[ianlaw]

Some more thoughts.

 

What you are looking for in a finished layout will also dictate your trackplan. Do you want to just run a lot of trains or do you enjoy watching them run through realistic scenery. If the latter then you need to ensure you have enough different angles to keep your eye happy. Tunnel entrance, paddy field, mountains, townscape, bridges, station and yards. And as Ken said you need to know your train length before you glue down the track. One of the most irritating things to the (my) eye is a train leaving a tunnel hiding a small radius bend before the end had entered. Or the front is in the next tunnel before the end has left the previous one. Or the train not fitting the platform.... you get the idea.

Most people put their station at the front and running lines at the back.

I enjoy seeing the train on the running line in scenery so put that at the front. This also saves space as I only have to suggest the town behind the station. If you like shunting this would not work.

Trainlength is 1/4 of the straight length over which I can see the train.

Laying some tracks down of the floor or a board will help you determine these things.

I started with HO, but most people simply don't have the space so end up with a small terminus station on a rural line and a fiddleyard.

In HOe I still needed a full room.

I skipped N

In Z I can run 4 car trains without things looking silly in 40x180cm and the station can hold 6 car trains. For 8-10 car trains I think I'd need at least double the space (for my eye).

[cteno4]

Ian's points are great to think about and why its good to fiddle by just plopping track and buildings and temp scenery structure down for your viewing. you need to figure out what bothers you a lot and avoid it! many times you dont realize these until you see them or try to operate trains with them etc. again they are things that folks can tell you but usually dont really hit home for you until you experience them yourself with your own eyes. 

 

Its all very personal. then mix that with what you want -- playing with trains or the trains going thru nice scenes or a mix of those and then start jiggling to get the max for your own set of desires and hates and your limits on space, money, time, effort, skills. You probably can never have it all with all these variables and limitations, but try to figure out the best optimum of the variables for you.

 

again finishing your planning while playing will get this much closer to the optimum than you will with lists and plans on paper and in the computer and you will find new things you never thought of or imagined before!

 

jeff

[Bernard]

John,

You have a nice collection of structures so I would started planning your layout with where you want to put these buildings on it. Jeff brings up a good point....what type of track do you plan to use? If you use Kato or Tomix sectional track you can run trains as you build not so with flex track.

Even with paper and pencil you can draw a rough sketch of ideas for your layout plan and post it here.

Bernard, I am thinking a semi-permanent layout. If a move is absolutely necessary I need the larger sections to be about 6 by 4 feet. I am fine if some track and scenery needs to replaced. I am not thinking a fully modular exhibition kind though. I will use foam, but more the kind that is readily available here in India. Woodland scenic risers is not feasible, mainly because it is not readily available and I do not think the import hassle plus costs associated is affordable. I understand accuracy, but I need to figure an alternative in place of the risers. And yes, I have started on the structures and lighting to accelerate once the layout takes some form and benchwork is done.

 

 

IMG_1053.JPG  IMG_1054.JPG

[john_ibw]

Ken, thank you for clarifying, I meant viaduct, street and underground. Yes, I am looking at a yard with turntable as I have 3 Tomix stalls and the ECS controlled turntable already. I wish to incorporate that into the layout. I was inspired by the pictures in a large yard diorama that was discussed in the forum recently. I know I can't built such a big and impressive one. But I hope to design with some buildings, structures and sidings for 8 trains.

 

Trains are short ones, mainly because I have acquired only the basic sets. 6 cars usually. I have the Kato overhead station (2 sets) and 1 extension set which I intend to use with 2 sidings on the station allowing 4 trains to be at the station. Picture below. And I thought with the extension set, the 6 car ones looks fine and not overshooting the platforms really. That is 6 nos. 248 mm sections back to back. I can't really think of a 16 car configuration and a layout to match that at this juncture. Passenger only at this point as I don't have any freight as yet. I am not sure if I should start buying more trains! I have Shinkansen, commuter and express trains.

 

 

Thank you sharing the Oji station links. I am still figuring it out but I certainly can draw much inspiration from it. 

 

Bernard and Jeff: it will be mostly Kato sectional track and a little flex track. I would think I will use the flex track in hard-to-reach areas and inside tunnels as it is my understanding that I will minimise derailments and electrical contact issues. Also, I don't need to do much detailing and weathering in those sections. Hopefully, this weekend, I should scout for some materials as Jeff suggested. I may get some ideas if I look at the stuff rather than figure out something that I need.

 

Ian, you make a good point about scenery vs. townscape focus. I think given the structures I have (initially targeted for a Unitram layout - see picture below) and the number of railway buildings, yard, turntable and station, it is going to be more a busy railway centric layout with some townscape for the Tram (i will use Tomix wide tram and not Unitram which is space consuming in my opinion). There are some structures meant for small towns and farms. But, I am not sure if all of it can be incorporated into this layout. I may be able to squeeze some in though.

 

 

Jeff, great idea of the time lapse photos. I think I have just the equipment for it and can dedicate it 100% for the project which will be cool if I can pull it off! :)

 

Thanks guys. I am already locating my trains and track and studying them to see how it will all come together.

 

 

 

[cteno4]

i feel like we got a little kid, fed him pop and candy, got him all revved up with some toys and handed him back to his mother!

 

glad to hear you are getting excited about the project and hopefully over the hump. once things start to get going it will get easier, but you will find that you will also hit some stall points as well, everyone seems to at various junctions.

 

actually i doubt the flex track in hidden area would be any less prone to derailments than unitrak. unitrak is really robust stuff. we have very few derailments on the jrm layout and usually points are more where that happens. electrical connection issues only really come into play with time when you ballast the whole roadbed and get glue all in around the unijoiners. this with time can cause some issues and at times folks have had to come back in and solder problem joints. ive always wanted to play with the contact grease that is used on contacts that could get moisture into them. a tiny bit of that w/in the joiner might help keep out this issue of ballast glue getting in there. 

 

putting power drops every 3-4' on the main lines seems to get rid of power drop issues and more of a must for dcc.

 

most flex joints need to be soldered to keep them true. flex joints need to be done carefully and make sure they are in alignment once done (sometimes you need to spike the rails at the joints to get them nice and parallel, especially on curves.)

 

keep us posted!

 

cheers

 

jeff

[ianlaw]

Yes, It looks like it will be a townscape for you. But even then my points are still valid. You don't want your layout to look the same from every angle. So maybe in one area you will have elevated tracks between high building and in another area you will have a low level track passing through the back streets. 

 

Your tram layout looks fine. You might start off just popping that in somewhere in the middle. Put the station in front and have some trains running to feed your imagination. You have enough elements to put down and move around to get a idea what works for you before you glue down any tracks. Then you can have another go with AnyRail, but now it should be a quicker process.

[Bernard]

John - Using flex track doesn't necessarily mean fewer derailments. Making a curve with flex track can be tricky especially if you have to join with solder a few pieces together....if you're not careful it can cause "kinks" at the join. Also joining flex with Kato track even with a cork roadbed under the flex is going to be a difference with height between the 2 types of track....but it can be done. On second though, you might get fewer derailments by using just Kato track.