Train Crashes into Station

[westfalen]

A mishap in the Brisbane suburb of Cleveland this morning when a train over ran the stop blocks and crashed into the station. I was on the train two before this one.

 

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/passenger-train-derails-on-cleveland-line-during-morning-commute/story-e6freoof-1226565749276

 

Picture gallery

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/gallery-e6frer96-1226565806943

[marknewton]

Are the crew okay?

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

[bikkuri bahn]

According to news reports, the driver was hospitalized for shock. 

 

"leaves on the track"?:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/australia/8250320/Brisbane-train-crash-highlights-track-issues

[westfalen]

The crew are ok, they were both talking on the radio to control straight after it happened. The driver was taken to the local police station for routine questioning (the driver of a train is treated the same as a driver of any vehicle in an accident) and I believe he was taken to hospital just to get checked out. There are/where photos on media websites showing him at the station immediately afterwards and he looked ok. The guard realised they were approaching the station too fast and braced himself.

 

Seeing others have already said as much and I can't get into trouble for breaking news, my theory is also leaves on the tracks. On the way to Cleveland that morning I only just managed to stop on the platform at the previous station and on the way back later came in at 30kmh instead of 60 and still just skidded to a stop and the wheels were still slippery when I got to the next station. The driver who took back the train I brought down overshot the platform by five cars and the one after me by three. Gailes on the Ipswich line was still slippery today, I overshot by half a car after approaching at half normal speed. The old EMUs are not too bad but the brake computers on the new 160/260 class think for themselves too much in slippery conditions.

Edited February 1, 2013 by westfalen

[westfalen]

News just in. The drivers unions have black banned the 160/260 class units effective immediately, which means 1/3 of the fleet out of action. QR appears to be looking at the leaves as I have it on good authority that crews working the line that morning have been questioned about slip/slide problems.

[Jcarlton]

Your people might want to talk to Metro North here in the states about the leaves issue.  We have to deal with it in Oct/Nov and I think Metro North has modified some hirail trucks with brush grinders to deal with some of the leaves.

[westfalen]

Unfortunately our 'people' live in their own little world and are telling the public slippery rails were not an issue. The unions were ordered by arbitrators last night to operate the trains in question as there was no apparent problems with the brakes.

 

Someone just pointed out to me that it was sixty years ago in January that Pennsylvania Railroad train 173 ran away and crashed through Washington Union Station, the number of the unit that crashed through Cleveland station, 173. Coincidence?

Edited February 2, 2013 by westfalen

[E6系]

Mr Westfalen,

 

Where is the train made?  Is it fitted with a black box?  Also, why is slippery rail such a problem to cause this accident?

[Densha]

In the Netherlands we have had specialized trains that sprayed some kind of liquid on the tracks against the slipping. These days some kind of modules are placed underneath EMUs that does the same job. I believe it is called 'sandite' over here.

[westfalen]

Mr Westfalen,

 

Where is the train made?  Is it fitted with a black box?  Also, why is slippery rail such a problem to cause this accident?

The trains were made in Maryborough, Queensland under license from ABB as have all QR's electrics to date and are fitted with data loggers that record all operational aspects of the train. The data logger tapes have not been made public yet. I woudn't mind betting they never are. The brake computers on the units have a habit of letting go when the wheels start to skid so as not to flatten the wheels. It's not uncommon to have the brakes in full service and have speed actually increasing.

 

Leaves on the rails are about the worse thing you can get, even worse than water or grease. As others have been saying it's such a problem in some northern hemisphere countries that railways go to great lengths to solve the problem, I believe a train in the UK slid for two miles before it could stop on one occasion. In Australia leaf falls are not normally a problem but wild storms over the weekend brought down a lot of trees and left leaves and foliage over the track in may places.

[E6系]

Mr Westfalen,

 

Yes, maple leaf and rotten fruit also a problem.

 

Sometimes we must accept that an accident is simply just an accident.

[marknewton]

The crew are ok, they were both talking on the radio to control straight after it happened. The driver was taken to the local police station for routine questioning (the driver of a train is treated the same as a driver of any vehicle in an accident) and I believe he was taken to hospital just to get checked out. There are/where photos on media websites showing him at the station immediately afterwards and he looked ok. The guard realised they were approaching the station too fast and braced himself.

 

Glad to hear they're alright. But you know the old saying: "If the accident doesn't kill you, the investigation will!" :)

 

Seeing others have already said as much and I can't get into trouble for breaking news, my theory is also leaves on the tracks. On the way to Cleveland that morning I only just managed to stop on the platform at the previous station and on the way back later came in at 30kmh instead of 60 and still just skidded to a stop and the wheels were still slippery when I got to the next station. The driver who took back the train I brought down overshot the platform by five cars and the one after me by three. Gailes on the Ipswich line was still slippery today, I overshot by half a car after approaching at half normal speed. The old EMUs are not too bad but the brake computers on the new 160/260 class think for themselves too much in slippery conditions.

 

Sounds like fun. There's a couple of places on our network where leaves are a problem, you always come into the platform with plenty of brake on if you're in an Oscar.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

[marknewton]

Unfortunately our 'people' live in their own little world and are telling the public slippery rails were not an issue. The unions were ordered by arbitrators last night to operate the trains in question as there was no apparent problems with the brakes.

 

Since when has FWA been qualified to make determinations on operational and safety issues? If I was with QR, I'd be going to the National Rail Safety Regulator with this.

 

And your minister is a fool as well, judging by this comment:

 

"Transport Minister Scott Emerson has refused to speculate on the cause but has ruled out "catastrophic brake failure" on the basis the train had a complete maintenance check three weeks ago."

 

Really? 

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

 

Edited February 5, 2013 by marknewton

[marknewton]

The brake computers on the units have a habit of letting go when the wheels start to skid so as not to flatten the wheels. It's not uncommon to have the brakes in full service and have speed actually increasing.

 

Sounds familiar. Tangaras, Oscars and Waratahs do the same thing.

 

Leaves on the rails are about the worse thing you can get, even worse than water or grease. As others have been saying it's such a problem in some northern hemisphere countries that railways go to great lengths to solve the problem, I believe a train in the UK slid for two miles before it could stop on one occasion. In Australia leaf falls are not normally a problem but wild storms over the weekend brought down a lot of trees and left leaves and foliage over the track in may places.

 

And if it's not leaves, it's flange lubricators. When the duplication on the Cronulla branch opened to traffic, the lubricator on the down at Kirrawee was pumping so much fat it emptied itself by lunchtime. When I worked a train down there during the afternoon I had 6 1/2 cars off!

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

[westfalen]

Since when has FWA been qualified to make determinations on operational and safety issues? If I was with QR, I'd be going to the National Rail Safety Regulator with this.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

 

The RTBU is appealing the decision and think they will have a good chance of overturning it.

[westfalen]

A bit of an update.

 

QR ran some tests on the night of the 13th where they sprayed truck wash on the rails, the first test run slid for 480 metres from 70kmh but the remaining 13 runs showed nothing as the truck wash had predictably dried up and management decided that was the end of the issue. The Rail, Tram and Bus Union however, persevered and convinced QR to run further tests last night after a few days of rain to better simulate conditions on the day of the accident. To show the unit's brakes were working they reportedly succesfully made several stops in the length of station platforms from 100kmh then proceeded up the North Coast Line where, although it was not raining at the time, the track was damp and had not been used for a number of hours. To quote the union newsletter they had "several uncontrolled slides in excess of 860 metres". A union representative on the runs said the QR engineers on board were horrified and seem finally to believe what train crews have been trying to tell them for six years. Under the workplace health and safety laws now that management are without a doubt aware a hazard exists they are legally required to take action so it will be interesting to see what transpires in the coming days.

[Eisenbahn]

Is this a brake characteristic of the 160/260?  Do the earlier model EMUs slide this way in the wet?

 

 

[westfalen]

Only the 160 and 260 classes, and then only in certain conditions but an EMU or older IMU or SMU will do what's expected of it every time. I suppose it's technically not sliding as the train's computer decides to momentarily release the brakes to avoid skidding the wheels, the older units do it too but they keep trying and normally stop in the same distance by progressively applying more braking, the 160/260's computer though sometimes just seems to give up and lets the train roll. Having said that, most of the time they are ok and in dry conditions the braking is excellent but as Cleveland showed once can be enough.

[Eisenbahn]

Then this will mean a redesign of the brake control systems, extensive testing and a retrofit of the whole 160/260 fleet. It cant be left as it is. It is now a known fault/defficiency and this risk must be acted  on and mitigated  before the next incident occurs.  It would be interesting to know how thorough the  original acceptance testing of the 160/260  was and how tight the performance specs were written.

 

In the meantime, until this is fixed , I suppose QR will have to issue additional  wet weather operating cautions or  new procedures for drivers for the 160/260s. Will they??

[Davo Dentetsu]

I wonder what it means for the Transperth B-Series, if anything...

[westfalen]

I wonder what it means for the Transperth B-Series, if anything...

From what I gather they have the same problem as they are essentially the same train but you don't get as much wet weather over there. Makes me wonder if the braking was designed for W.A. conditions and QR management in usual fashion said that will do for ours too, we don't want to pay any extra.

[westfalen]

Then this will mean a redesign of the brake control systems, extensive testing and a retrofit of the whole 160/260 fleet. It cant be left as it is. It is now a known fault/defficiency and this risk must be acted  on and mitigated  before the next incident occurs.  It would be interesting to know how thorough the  original acceptance testing of the 160/260  was and how tight the performance specs were written.

 

In the meantime, until this is fixed , I suppose QR will have to issue additional  wet weather operating cautions or  new procedures for drivers for the 160/260s. Will they??

I agree with the first part, the union is pushing for testing to include leaves on the rails as is a requirement for all new trains in the UK.

 

To quote the union newsletter issued after the tests, "The data and evidence collected leaves no doubt that as experienced all over the globe in the right circumstances these trains will not stop within the parameters of Driver's Training or expectations".

 

What procedures can a driver use when he has applied the brakes and nothing happens? The speed limit into Cleveland platform has been dropped from 25 to 15 kmh since the crash but that won't help much if you can't slow down in the first place, I wouldn't like to try out the new friction buffer stop at the 50 - 60 kmh the train was doing either. I'm not sure reducing the speed limits for the trains would be sufficient as one of the recent incidents involved a train taking 400 metres to stop from only 25 kmh, usually if you put the brakes into the full service position at that speed you're peeling your face off the windscreen. As the union has been saying all along, if these were airliners every plane in the world with that braking system would be grounded until the investigation cleared them.

Edited February 21, 2013 by westfalen

[Jace]

Looks like it crashed into the loo! I'll refrain...

 

Seems to me that the slide control system is tuned for much different conditions than were encountered (especially if you normaly don't have much of a problem with leaves). Probably should have been speed restrictions in place due to conditions - watch for these to crop up the next time. Either that or they'll retune the system and you'll be seeing and hearing a lot more flat wheels out there.

 

Metro North has had a hell of time tuning their latest cars (M7s) for service in the fall: lots of flats, treating the rails, slow orders. They even had (have?) real time analysis of slides and overruns to make changes to speed restrictions on the go. I've never really heard the root cause of these slides but I suspect it's that the new cars are about 30% heavier than the cars they replaced but with the same acceleration and braking rates. The old cars would get flats too just not to the same magnitude. The situation with the M7s is really a trade off between maintenance costs versus train performance (and comfort - the weight gain is at least partly due to improved interior fittings, passenger communications, bigger HVAC units and the resulting increase in the power supply needed for all the new equipment).

 

The Berlin S Bahn is another one facing this problem: in the fall you could tell their class 481/482 cars from a distance since pretty much every car has a set of flats thumping away.

[miyakoji]

Here's JR East's solution (fast forward to :23) :

 

 

 

Note that this is the exceedingly rare 1435mm gauge KUMOYA 743-1.  In this Tetsudou Fan News picture, is there something being applied to the track?  Almost looks like there some dust immediately before the wheels.

 

http://railf.jp/news/2012/11/04/132500.html

 

In this video recorded at an open day at Yamagata Depot last October, from 3:10 to 3:20 you can see that there are boxes on the trucks, I'm guessing these are sandboxes, but they're not large enough to apply sand or other abrasive over long stretches of track.  Unless there's another reservoir somewhere.

 

 

[Eisenbahn]

Hi Westfalen,

 

I agree with what you say.

 

The 160/260s make up a big portion of the seats out on the network each day. There would need to be a lot of bus seats to replace them if they were taken out of service on wet days.

 

Be interesting to see what compromises/tradeoffs QR makes until the brakes are actually fixed.

 

best wishes...Eisenbahn