EH800 on the move

[Nick_Burman]

 

The first EH800 leaves for testing.

 

Cheers NB

[Densha]

That's good to see, until now it has only been testing on the tracks near the factory. The EF65 en DE10 still look more impressive though, the EH800 is almost like a cute toy train or something.

[cteno4]

i think its just the angles it was shot from there, its a much more massive engine than the EF65 or DE10. does not look toy like to me at all. i think it would be very impressive in person. trying to capture stuff like this from platforms is not the best angle to really get the feel for these trains. 

 

jeff

[Densha]

I think so too, that it's brand new, clean and in the glossy red paint doesn't help it. Glossy painted trains always seem to look smaller on the eye for some reason. It's partly my own preference too though...

[miyakoji]

Thanks for the post Nick. I'd been wondering when this thing was going to leave the Toshiba factory. 1067mm then? I would have liked to see a 1435mm locomotive. I wonder if the train-on-train operations will not happen. While I'm sure they could make it work, it seems like it would be a hassle. I also like to see scenes on the Musashino Line, it seems like it carries some interesting traffic from time to time.

[Eisenbahn]

It's a good video!

A lot of things are being tested here.  Whether or not "Train-on-Train" will work effectively in actual service, we will have to wait until 2015 to know .  The key thing, I suppose, will be to move freight at 200kph through the Seikan Tunnel  by any mode intermixed with Shinkansen traffic. From Toshiba's perspective, they will probably want to sell the EH800 to other parts of the JRF network for high speed freight . It will be interesting to see if they invest further in developing this product.

Does anyone know if the split body of the EH500 and EH800 was to do with ease of manufacture or more to do with operating on tight radius curves?

 

cheers...Eisenbahn

[Eisenbahn]

Here are some references.  

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Train_on_Train       

 

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JR_Freight_Class_EH800     

 

 

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JR_Freight_Class_EH500

[cteno4]

Wonder how the train on train is going in tests and equipment, not much noise on that lately.

 

Jeff

[westfalen]

Changing a locomotive from one gauge to another is a relatively simple matter of changing the bogies. We do it all the time in Australia where several classes of diesel electrics have changed back and forth between 3'6" and standard gauges.

[Eisenbahn]

Hi Westfalen,

 

Yes, I assumed that the reason that the first prototype of the EH800 rolled out of the factory 3ft6 was it would be easier to run around the existing 3ft6 network for its running-in trials.

Once all the bugs were fixed it could then be run on some standard gauge by a simple bogie change. I dont know if the standard gauge track project has been completed in the Seikan Tunnel yet. I wonder how much standard gauge apart from Shinkansen lines there would be for trials.

 

Both the EH500 & Eh800 appear to be very impressive designs though. Having the grunt to handle steeper grades and run freight at higher speed should be a winner for the designers. 

 

This TrainonTrain idea developed by HokkaidoRail has me a bit uneasy but good luck to them if it works in service.Better ways of doing things usually means taking risks.

[Densha]

I read on those wikipedia pages that sleeper trains will be going through the Seikan Tunnel too even when the normal gauge is constructed. So maybe they aren't getting rid of the 1067mm track, which seems more logical to me because I think it's more feasible. Getting rid of the 1067 means that a part of the Kaikyo line wouldn't be used and that would be weird, while I think that some turnouts and maybe a flyover should fix it. I don't think the Hokkaido Shinkansen will be as busy as compared to other lines so there should be space for slower traffic for some kilometer.

This is one of the very few pictures I could find with the 3rd track laid down, but there's so less information about the Hokkaido Shinkansen available for some reason even though it's a large project.

http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/freetraveler_63/30315971.html

 

I found this old but interesting video about the TrainonTrain:

[Eisenbahn]

Hi Densha,

 

Thats a handy video to explain the trainontrain concept.  I assume that the Seikan Tunnel will be dual gauge for 3ft6 passenger trains capable of higher speed, shinkansen on standard gauge and  3ft6 freight operating on trainontrain running on standard gauge at higher speed.  This would mean that the entire JRF freight fleet including older 3ft6 freight cars with lower maximum  design speeds could run trainontrain designed for 200kph. 

 

TrainonTrain Operating procedures and safety measures will have to be carefully thought out eg load balancing, securing the top train properly, load stability etc so there are no accidents with the pressure of  regular commercial operation. It is a narrow tunnel with trains running in opposite directions at 200kmh+200kph impact speed. One can see high operating risk in that environment.

I dont read japanese at all but I am sure there will be a lot of published discussion about this and the status of the projects in Japanese media and Journals.

[Densha]

What I did noticed was that in the video a different loco was used through the Seikan tunnel, considering the prototype EH800 is 1067mm this could mean there will be another type too. Pay attention to the bogies and axles in the video too.

Edited January 12, 2013 by Densha

[Nick_Burman]

I read on those wikipedia pages that sleeper trains will be going through the Seikan Tunnel too even when the normal gauge is constructed. So maybe they aren't getting rid of the 1067mm track, which seems more logical to me because I think it's more feasible. Getting rid of the 1067 means that a part of the Kaikyo line wouldn't be used and that would be weird, while I think that some turnouts and maybe a flyover should fix it. I don't think the Hokkaido Shinkansen will be as busy as compared to other lines so there should be space for slower traffic for some kilometer.

This is one of the very few pictures I could find with the 3rd track laid down, but there's so less information about the Hokkaido Shinkansen available for some reason even though it's a large project.

http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/freetraveler_63/30315971.html

 

I found this old but interesting video about the TrainonTrain:

 

I might be wrong (as it has been said elsewhere, let's wait till 2015) but I think that the Train on Train project has been quietly dropped... the fact that JRF opted for a 1067mm gauge loco is one indication - they could have gone straight for a 1435mm one, with a much larger loading gauge (to profit from the generous Shinkansen clearances), then tested it on Shinkansen trackage in the "off" hours (any of the JRs could have spared a siding in a depot for testing). My opinion is that the Train on Train concept is inflexible, as it can only accommodate container flats...if in the future JRF decides to bid on contracts for freight which is not square shaped, they'll be stuffed, what with TonT and its very tight internal clearances...

 

 

Cheers NB

Edited January 12, 2013 by Nick_Burman

[Densha]

I agree with you too Nick, I was just trying to find out what the plans were but which one the final one will be is still very vague. This is exactly what I mean that there's not much information available, at least in English.

[cteno4]

Nick,

 

That was my suspicion that it was being dropped as its been dead in news for the last year or so. as you note i would expect by now to see tests being run on shinkansen lines at this point.

 

jeff

[bronzeonion]

I like the look of that new loco! Shame about the fate of electric locomotives in the UK, new builds will most likely be a scaled down versions of the extremely ugly European locomotives like Traxx and Taurus.

[Densha]

I don't like the Traxx either, the design is extremely boring, but it's still better than the constantly the same type of EMUs passing by on the railway line closest to my house now since last December. The BR189 looks very much like a Traxx but is much more attractive. Either way all modern European locos are extremely boring and the Japanese still produce reasonable good looking design. It can't be compared to the classic loco designs of course, but the power output is higher than the classics of course. Now that I am actually reading into power output I noticed that the EH800 doesn't have an extremely high output compared to the EH200 for example which has more than 4500kW while the EH800 will be 4000kW.

(off-topic: but I just found out that the largest locomotive leasing company in Europe is a subsidiary company of the Japanese company of Mitsui, I had no idea up until now)

[Nick_Burman]

I like the look of that new loco! Shame about the fate of electric locomotives in the UK, new builds will most likely be a scaled down versions of the extremely ugly European locomotives like Traxx and Taurus.

 

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I live in a country who has made a point of scrapping all its mainline electrification in 1999 in the wake of rail privatization, leaving only suburban trains under wire. Given these constraints, I find all the new generation of European-built electrics quite interesting - some more than the others, like the new Skoda "inverted bathtub" locos which are being built for CD and ZSSK. Also the fact that they crop up in unexpected places (GySEV locos in Hamburg, for instance) since these locos are multi-voltage and multi-signalling.How I wish I could go trackside here and see a pair of double Alstom Prima locos (like the ones built for China) roll by with a freight, rather than the mass of ex-US "rolling scrap" which has become the norm.

 

Cheers NB

[bronzeonion]

I don't like the Traxx either, the design is extremely boring, but it's still better than the constantly the same type of EMUs passing by on the railway line closest to my house now since last December. The BR189 looks very much like a Traxx but is much more attractive. Either way all modern European locos are extremely boring and the Japanese still produce reasonable good looking design. It can't be compared to the classic loco designs of course, but the power output is higher than the classics of course. Now that I am actually reading into power output I noticed that the EH800 doesn't have an extremely high output compared to the EH200 for example which has more than 4500kW while the EH800 will be 4000kW.

(off-topic: but I just found out that the largest locomotive leasing company in Europe is a subsidiary company of the Japanese company of Mitsui, I had no idea up until now)

 

The same can be said for most trains in mainland Europe to be honest, nearly all of them are extremely ugly if i'm honest! A standard gauge EH510 built to British loading gauge would be much more welcome than an ugly Traxx or whatever else.

[Eisenbahn]

It will be interesting to watch what unfolds in 2015 when the Hokkaido Shinkansen starts to operate through the Seikan Tunnel.

 

Whether or not the TrainonTrain method for moving freight through the tunnel needs to commence at the same time is another matter.  Perhaps it may be introduced at a later time when increased growth in freight and passenger traffic give rise to significant capacity issues with the tunnel. If Trainontrain is introduced it would significantly change (increase) the risk profile of Tunnel operations. Load stability and increased speed would be two issues. There would be a question of whether the insurers of the Tunnel (and train operators) would be willing to take on the added risk and if so at what price. That may be a sufficient reason alone for JR Hokkaido to defer or abandon the TrainonTrain concept.

 

Presumable many of the passenger train types that currently use the tunnel would continue to run through the tunnel at speeds they currently use. (Does anyone know what actual  Tunnel speed is?)  Of course with the introduction of Shinkansen, usage on some of these trains eg sleeper trains, would change over time. The JR Hokkaido website lists six passenger train types  currently using the tunnel, Hamanasu, Hakucho, Super-Hakucho, Cassiopeia, Hokutosei, Twighlight Express. They have maximum operationg speeds of 110kph to 140kph.  There seems to be no suggestion of packaging them TrainonTrain.

 

The Seikan Tunnel has a different risk profile to the British-French Channel Tunnel where there is a separate tunnel for each direction of  train operation.  The link between Honshu and Kyushu uses one tunnel (Kanmon 1942) for regular passenger trains and freight and another (Shin-Kanmon 1975) for Shinkansen traffic.

 

A collision in the Seikan Tunnel between a speeding Shinkansen with 500 passengers and a derailing TrainonTrain with a load stability problem would have an impact on Hokkaido far beyond the death and destruction at the crash site. In likelihood the tunnel would be closed for two years whilst repaired. Since most of people movements (90%)  to/from Hokkaido are currently by air, adding extra air capacity could be done fairly quickly but not so freight. Building capacity for freight movement by sea would take some time. Supplying food for the population of Hokkaido and goods to keep the economy going would be difficult.  A shinkansen disaster would also impact Japan’s reputation on the World generally. If there was a belief that TrainonTrain added high operating risk , one can see that JR Hokkaido might be pressured from a variety of places to drop the idea.

 

It would be good to find out what JR Hokkaido’s plans actually were. The only information published on this Forum so far was the video of the preproduction EH800 being trialed and the animation explaining TrainonTrain. (Both informative videos.)

 

If TrainonTrain was going ahead in 2015 concurrent with the Shinkansen introduction there would be evidence of the construction of the TrainonTrain transfer facilities at either end of the tunnel, and manufacture of the standard gauge piggyback flatcars themselves. Where are they? Apparently the manufacture of the EH800s is due to start in the last quarter this year, assuming the prototype trials go well.

 

As a separate matter, does any Forum member know if anyone has a model of train operations out of the Seikan Tunnel?  The Tunnel entrance is a single twin track portal from which would emerge Shinkansen (E5) a variety of interesting Passenger trains and mixed  freight hauled by those EH500 EH800.

[Eisenbahn]

My last reply here is probably better placed as a new post on a new topic about The Seikan Tunnel; Train-on-Train;2015 and theHokkaido Shinkansen It is not really about the EH800, the topic of Nick_Burman's original past although it followed on from some replies there.

[westfalen]

Moved to another thread.

Edited January 16, 2013 by westfalen

[miyakoji]

EH800-901 was running on its own outside of yard limits on February 19th.  Test runs were on the Tohoku Main Line between Higashi-Sendai signal box and Ishikoshi, a distance of 66km.

 

Tetsudou Fan news: http://railf.jp/news/2013/02/21/100000.html

[Mr Frosty]

The EH800 looks superb.

 

I agree with the comments about European locomotives. The best designs were from the 60's 70's.