Weird sound coming from motor Tomix Kiha 40

[Densha]

I will take a look at that Martijn.

 

But the main problem I still have: would only my motor have this problem or do other motors of this series do it too? According the Krackel Hopper it didn't, at least with his Tomix transformer.

That would mean the problem is with my motor right? I know the DC isn't as good as you would want it, but why am only I getting this sound and not others?

I just can't get my head wrapped around it; while the transformer should be the cause it's still the train that doesn't accept the current.

[Martijn Meerts]

If it is the motor causing the noise, it might just be you got a bad motor. It doesn't happen often, but every once in a while is just no good. Not all Japanese trains are top quality, I have several (brand new) sets that had issues with running or details parts having come off etc.

 

I actually have a marklin ice 2 set which has terrible running characteristics, and makes a really bad noise when the interior lights are on, and this is an 800 euro model which only has 4 cars :)

 

It sucks when you get a bad model, especially when you don't have a lot of money to get models. Like I said though, most issues are fixable, and if you want you can mail it to me and I'll have a look, and you're always welcome to visit if you're nearby :)

[Densha]

You can't compare Märklin in terms of pricing though... but I get the point.

 

Thanks for the offer, if it turns out bad over here I may get back at it.

[Densha]

After even having to remove the skirt and coupler and putting wooden skewers between the interior plastic I finally got it off.

It now appears that there was a circuit board underneath it that made the whole electrical connection possible and that springs were used between the motor and circuit board and between the bogies and circuit board. It seems like a weird, not so good connection, but that may just be me. And indeed there was a worm drive to the bogies, but half of the mechanics worked with those black rods.

With that there also was nothing left to take apart so I took the motor out the frame and put the wires from my transformer to the springs (was easier to hold than directly) and tested with some different speeds. I don't think the motor makes any weird noises, though it isn't the most silent motor I've heard, and it doesn't seem to constant for me but that's difficult for me to say because I've got nothing to compare to.

I'll try to upload a sound record and photos.

[Martijn Meerts]

Also put up some pictures of the parts and things like that, maybe one of us can spot something ..

 

Tomix has quite a few different ways of building their frames, I've come across some weird designs while installing decoders :)

[Densha]

Pictures.

 

And it's a circuit board of course, I didn't even pay enough attention. The springs push against the metal parts.

[Martijn Meerts]

Ah yes, that's a rather common design, I've converted a few of those to DCC :) None of the ones I've converted with a similar design were particularly noisy.

 

Other things you can try is remove 1 of the drive rods (the plastic rod between motor and bogie), and see if there's any noise. If there is, try putting that rod back in and remove the other one, then check for noise again. You can also remove 1 bogie and run the motor to check if the noise is in the bogies.

 

I have had designs like these where the worm wheel wasn't completely clicked onto the bogie, and while in my case there was no strange noise, it definitely didn't run well and did have the movement you mentioned.

[Densha]

The thing is, without the interior placed over I can't run. I put the motor and rods back but it's almost impossible to hold it still and the springs jump away... aaarghhhh. When I did sort of managed to hold still for a few seconds I didn't hear any particular noise. But my transformer also makes a lot of noise so I can't hear it well. Overall I still don't know anything and I'm starting to hate this thing and starting to detest the hobby because of this. :angry4:

 

I recorded the motor only here:

http://s1112.beta.photobucket.com/user/Ovindel/media/DSC_1586_zps78565176.mp4.html

The background noise is the transformer.

 

And back to where we were: we made clear the problem was electrical didn't we? I mean, it ran better with the 9V battery.

[CaptOblivious]

Oh my was that one of the motor brushes rolling across your desk at the end of your video!? Don't lose that!

 

I couldn't really hear anything in the video, but I didn't have headphones on.

 

I have seen this design in many Tomix units. I have had issues in the past with not very smooth running, but in general it is a good design. The gold-plated PCB is encouraging—that should actually help with electrical contact.

 

Given the 9V test, I am still myself inclined to think it is transformer noise. Especially since I don't see any caps on the circuit board (is it possible to extract the PCB to photograph the other side)?

[Densha]

I know, those are the springs I told about. They keep rolling away, but I always stop everything and search for them first.

 

There's isn't anything particular to listen too though... except for the transformer noise that makes it even more difficult to hear.

 

Except for the leds I can only spot the connection for the interior lightning and next to them a pair of very small ~3x5mm and 1mm high white blocks with the number 561 on it, that's it.

[Martijn Meerts]

Motor sounds fine to me, nothing wrong there...

 

Those white things are likely resistors, although I can't say I've seen white ones before. 561 sounds like a reasonable resistor value for your average LED though.

[Densha]

So that resistor is for the leds? I put the circuit board back because otherwise I would have really forgotten how I had to put it back together.

 

But well... what to do know? Do you think I should try the capacitor in rails thing?

 

Somewhat unrelated question: is this a common type of motor, do other manufacturers also use this kind of motor or completely different types? I know very little about that.

[Martijn Meerts]

The resistor is for the LEDs yes.

 

You could try a capacitor on the track (you'd have to ask someone which one you need, as I have no idea about that. I just always remove them when doing a DCC install :)), but I don't think it's a motor issue. From the video it sounds rather normal to me.

 

You might have to look at the drive rods and or worm gear construction. There might be something binding there making the motor have to work too hard to get the train moving, even though that shouldn't generate a noise like what you're getting.

 

The motor is likely the standard 5 pole motor Tomix uses for a lot of models, although it might also be the older 3 pole motor. They are very common for Tomix models at least.

 

 

It can be really frustrating having a train that runs bad, but generally N-scale trains are fairly simple, so after a little experimentation with taking one or two apart and rebuilding it, you'll know pretty much anything there is to know.

[CaptOblivious]

Martijn, where are you seeing the resistor? I can't see one. A marking of 561 = 560ohms, a standard value for LEDs on 12V.

[Densha]

You can't see one. I didn't post a photo of it. I wrote about it two posts back.

[POMU]

Densha

  Has your problem been fixed?

[Densha]

Nope. I am waiting to try it on a track with capacitor that my grandparents have laying around, I hope to do that in a few days. I don't know how to test the gears/bogies.

[CaptOblivious]

I'd pick, just as a start, a 100nF (0.1uF) cap. Don't use an aluminum electrolytic, or any other polarized capacitor—ceramic is good, mylar film or styrene also also probably fine if you have those hanging about.

[Densha]

Minitrix N and Fleischmann H0 feeder tracks have built in capacitors, I want to try that first but I don't have them at home. I don't have electronical parts either, and don't even know what you're talking about honestly.

[Densha]

This afternoon I finally could test it with feeder tracks with a capacitor. I used a Minitrix and Fleischmann feeder track with capacitor, the Minitrix capacitor had "100N 16V-" written on it, the Fleischmann "M 104 M5E". I used a Trix and Fleischmann transformer. I tried all combinations, when using the Trix transformer it still has the same "click click click" sound but with the Fleischmann transformer the sound is the same as with the Kato transformer: some sort of (electrical) irregular buzz.

So problem not solved and I'm completely out of options now.

[POMU]

Densha

  Sorry to know that.  No suggestion other than replacing the motor and drive assembly

[Densha]

Shall I send an email to the shop to see what they suggest? I did open the shell, but that should not affect anything. I doubt if they would take it back and give me a refund, sending it back to me costs a fortune.

[POMU]

Worth a try -