Weird sound coming from motor Tomix Kiha 40

[CaptOblivious]

Inobu has offered sound advice. Sounds like, since there is no noise with 9V battery, he has pinpointed the issue—you are getting some kind of electrical noise from your throttle.

 

The difference between 110V AC and 100VAC is negligible. I use Japanese equipment designed for 100VAC all the time in my house wired for US 110VAC. However, you might have a dodgy transformer, that is one possible source of stray electrical noise. I would try both different sets of throttles, as well as different 220->110 transformers, to figure out which is the source of the noise…

[Krackel Hopper]

Krackel Hopper,

What transformer did you use with your Kiha40?

 

Last I ran my Kiha 40-350 was with a Tomix N 1001-CL Power Unit

 

I have a couple Kato transformers, I'll try one out and see if it creates a problem for me.

[Densha]

I only have one Kato throttle, one Kato transformer and one converter. What I meant was that I don't know which of those three devices make the noise, while the transformer would the logical answer. While you say the difference in voltage is negligible it wouldn't be impossible for it to add more trouble to a device that already is imperfect right?

For more testing (of the train) the only thing I am able to do currently is use a Trix transformer I have, which is made for the AC from the wall over here. I just want to confirm that it will not start making the sound with other transformers, even though the answer is probably already clear.

What I completely don't understand though is how my other trains are behaving perfectly with my Kato throttle and how the Tomix Kiha40 doesn't.

 

@Krackel Hopper

Thanks! I'm waiting eagerly.

[CaptOblivious]

I only have one Kato throttle, one Kato transformer and one converter. What I meant was that I don't know which of those three devices make the noise, while the transformer would the logical answer. While you say the difference in voltage is negligible it wouldn't be impossible for it to add more trouble to a device that already is imperfect right?

For more testing (of the train) the only thing I am able to do currently is use a Trix transformer I have, which is made for the AC from the wall over here. I just want to confirm that it will not start making the sound with other transformers, even though the answer is probably already clear.

What I completely don't understand though is how my other trains are behaving perfectly with my Kato throttle and how the Tomix Kiha40 doesn't.

 

@Krackel Hopper

Thanks! I'm waiting eagerly.

 

Here is one guess as to why certain trains are making noise while others don't. You can prove or disprove this fairly readily. Many trains from Japan ship with a capacitor across the motor leads. There has been a fair amount of speculation on this forum as to why this is so, but one upshot of such a configuration is that trains equipped with such capacitors would be immune to certain frequencies of transformer noise. So, one possible answer to your question is that your quiet trains are equipped with such capacitors, and your noisy trains are not. Owning the Kato E231-500 myself, I know that it is not equipped with a capacitor across the motor leads—some slight evidence of my claim.

[Densha]

Hmmm... that reminds me, the first few times I used my Kato E231-500 with my Kato throttle there were no problems but after a while the motor started making that noise and didn't stop doing since then.

Update: the E231-500 also makes the sound with the 9V battery, and I think it's more of a mechanical buzz so maybe it should be cleaned or oiled. At least I don't think it's too bad.

So far the only train having problems with my Kato transformer is the Tomix Kiha40.

[Densha]

The Tomix Kiha 40 has been tested with my old Trix transformer. It makes a sound more closer to what inobu described as clicks. There are multiple in one second but you can clearly hear them separately if you listen close. While I don't understand how, it sounds like gears being stuck or something.

Now there's a buzz with the Kato transformer and some sort of clicking with the Trix transformer. The battery seems to make all annoying sounds disappear, but maybe they are just less loud.

 

I'm kinda lost on how to approach the problem now. All other trains I've ever had worked perfectly with both transformers and now this one is making weird noises with both. Could it be possible that there is something off with this motor that results in it being so sensitive?

[inobu]

Densha,

 

Here is a troubleshooting process that further aide in fault isolation.

 

It is called rolling or frogging.

 

What you do is change the variables in the situation to see if the problems follows.

 

In your case you have the train and track with your power configuration. You want to change one of the variables.

 

If you were to visit your local hobby shop and ran the train there. If the problem still exists then the problem followed you pointing to the train.

If it runs fine then you know you left the problem at home. This means your power configuration is the trouble. This will direct you to a more specific

area to focus on.

 

What is important in this test is for the hobby shop to have a setup that eliminates the 230v to 100v converter.

 

but before you drive there flip your Kato transformer plug. There is polarization in power plugs. Some power supplies don't have the plugs keyed and some do. Using multiple power supplies together requires the transformers to be phased. Meaning all the plugs need to be plugged in the same way.

 

polarized

 

nonpolarized

 

 

Because you have three components Wall power, converter, and transformer there could be a phasing issue.

 

Try this first then run down to the hobby shop.

 

Inobu

[Densha]

I tried every combination I could make, but it doesn't seem to make a difference. I also did this at another wall outlet at a different floor, but it did the same for me.

 

It's a pity the hobby shop is closed till Wednesday. >_>

[inobu]

I tried every combination I could make, but it doesn't seem to make a difference. I also did this at another wall outlet at a different floor, but it did the same for me.

 

It's a pity the hobby shop is closed till Wednesday. >_>

 

Figures.............Now we have to wait too...........

 

Inobu

 

But you are picking it up quickly (train troubleshooting)

[Densha]

Yeah... I had a terrifying experience last year with a second hand computer that I just couldn't seem to make work... after all (months later) there was both a software and hardware problem. I learned to scale down and exclude factors, but a model train is something completely different because it has moving parts. I can't stand having to wait and not knowing what comes with such expensive expenses, trying to stay calm is difficult when you don't know which part is the cause.

Here's hoping that it's *just* the transformer of the Kato throttle; my Trix transformer isn't in really good state after so many years so I can't say it's a reliable source. There's still a chance I don't have to go to the trouble of finding a new motor (which I think will be almost impossible) or sending it back to Japan.

[POMU]

Yeah it sounds very electrical. It's just weird, very weird.

Krackel and other people who own a Tomix Kiha40 (I think some other Kiha's have the same motor too): do you recognize this sound before it was oiled?

 

Pictures of the disassembled model: http://powerel.exblog.jp/9752435/

Hi Densha

  If from the disassembly pictures you have the same type of "worm" drive in you Tomix model, then you need to grease it.  Even then it will never run completly silent but will run better and quiter.  The shaking and other noise could be from the drive rubbing against the containment box  -  might need a little tweaking.

http://www.trainweb.org/tomix/rollingstock/springdrive.htm

Hope this might help

[Densha]

Isn't that a completely different type of motor than I have? Both the Tomix website and other websites say it's a flywheel, and I can actually see the rods usual with flywheels from below.

That photo indeed shows a worm gear (? as translated by google) but I don't really understand how that works.

[POMU]

Don't know which type motor you have - presumed you had the old Tomix worm drive from dissaembly photo.  Might be lost in translaytion here regarding what you consider a "fly wheel" drive.  Fly wheels have nothing to do with the power from motor to bogie.

Worm gear as you see from photo is same as shaft - only older more crude and noisier.

[Densha]

http://www.tomytec.co.jp/tomix/products/n/8441.htm

フライホイール付動力搭載

Furai hoi-ru

 

As far as I can see there's that little ball you see with flywheels but it does seem to change into the gear you can see in the picture on the Japanese blog page. However, note that the design of this train is fairly recent: the first Kiha40's from Tomix are from 2009 and later.

My knowledge of this is very limited.

[POMU]

I believe Tomix announced in 2010 they were switching to a new drive - listened to your video and sound like motor  need to be lubricated along with gears - also sounds like something is rubbing against frame

[Densha]

Hmm... I really don't know honestly. The fact is that the sound is different with the Kato transformer, Trix transformer and 9V battery, so I would think it's a electronical problem. The gears may be a bit dry too, but I can hear the separate those sounds I think.

I have to wait till Wednesday anyway to get to the hobby shop for either testing, getting lubricant, or both. Because it may come in handy anyway, what type of lubricant would you recommend?

 

Btw, this model was released this August, but probably uses the 2009 motor.

[POMU]

Would guess if electrical, could be bad motor.  Any lubricant/grease compatible with plastic is OK.  I use La Belle

[Martijn Meerts]

The disassembly pictures show a regular worm drive, not the much hated spring worm drive :)

 

Also, the noise is definitely not the noise a spring worm drive generates.. A spring worm sounds very mechanical and grinding.

[Densha]

Ahhh... I didn't know there were different types.

 

Good to know.

 

And again, we'll have to wait until Wednesday. How annoying it may be.

[CaptOblivious]

If it were the dreaded spring worm drive, the sound would increase in pitch as speed increases. Also, the sound is pretty distinctive—and hateful. I continue to vote for an electrical problem.

[Densha]

I just went to the train shop and he tried it out with his Trix transformer and unfortunately the train behaved exactly like it does with my Trix transformer (of an older generation).

I told him my story and showed him the trick with the 9V batteries and he thinks it could indeed be related with the AC --> DC conversion and with the (non-)existent capacitor, or that some part may be dirty or have a bad electrical connection. He told it might be solved by using DCC, but it's ridiculous to have to use DCC to have a train run properly.

 

Now we have a lot of speculation but still no idea how to fix it. There is one thing I actually thought of while writing this post, and that is placing a capacitor between the power output and the track, I know some manufacturers that do this for analog.

What do you guys think about the whole?

[Martijn Meerts]

Did he also tell you he just so happened to have a special offer on a digital system if you bought it right then and there? :)

 

Generally speaking, I only convert trains to DCC that I've tested on DC. If it runs bad on DC, or makes a strange noise, I tend to not do a conversion. DCC makes a locomotive behave more like the prototype, it doesn't magically fix bad/noisy trains ..

 

I'm really not sure what the problem could be.. Considering you're not too comfortable taking the thing apart, I guess you haven't tried removing the motor, and power it up? If you lived a bit closer you could've dropped by ;)

[Densha]

He meant that with DCC you have a more consistent current, which is true but I'm doubtful if it actually gets rid of the AC --> DC waves.

 

I only have experience taking apart a Lima motor and cleaning, oiling, and putting it back together, but that is noticeably different from this I think. I could try taking off the interior first though.

I'm somewhat doubtful if I (or someone else) could actually fix this. And if it appears it can't be fixed I can't go emailing my supplier months later that it is broken.

 

One thing I want add: with both mine and the train shops' Trix transformer the sound is different from the Kato transformer, it sounds more like "boom...boom....boom", a bit like an old diesel train does if you know what I mean. ;)

[CaptOblivious]

He meant that with DCC you have a more consistent current, which is true but I'm doubtful if it actually gets rid of the AC --> DC waves.

 

Not really. A loco that runs poorly on DC is going to run poorly on DCC, full stop. DCC alone cannot solve problems.

 

Putting a cap across the rails achieves largely the same effect as putting a cap across the motor, with very minor differences in the performance of the filter from the point of view of the motor—basically, there is a chance for additional noise to be injected between the cap and the motor, so the closer to the motor the cap is, the better it can filter noise. But I'm guessing the only real source of noise in your case is the transformer.

 

No way you could get your hands on an oscilloscope, is there? Even a cheapy one?

[Martijn Meerts]

You don't have to take the motor apart, in fact, it's pretty much impossible to do that and put it back together. Their motors are designed to be replaced once they're at their end.

 

Most things can be fixed, although sometimes it might end up being more expensive than its worth. If your problem is with the motor itself, you might need to replace it, but it could also be an issue with the gears in which case you might be able to fix it by running the train for a while. (I have had trains that had binding gears that just needed some running in to fix, but in your case it doesn't sound like binding gears)

 

If you remove the interior you should be able to take out the motor. Then just hook up either transformer directly to the motor and see if it generates a similar noise. If it does, the motor is the problem, if it doesn't you'll want to check the gears and see if the motor can run freely and doesn't bind when installed in the train.