Weird sound coming from motor Tomix Kiha 40

[Densha]

Hi,

 

Today I picked up my package from Popondetta at the post office. It's all in good condition and my second hand Kato Kiha110's motor is very quiet and is able to drive very slow. The motor of the Tomix Kiha40-400 (art. no. 8441) on the other hand is also able to drive very slow and is precise (which is good), but there's a weird sound coming from it. To illustrate it I uploaded a video you can view here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ovindelft/8260405385/

It's some sort of scraping sound, a bit like the Lima "coffee grinders", the model also shakes when it speeds up. The weird thing is that I'm quite sure there's a flywheel inside of it.

I do know however that most European manufacturers recommend to let your train drive in both directions for an half hour, is that recommended for Japanese models too and could that be the cause? Does any of you know what this could be/have experience with it/or anything else?

 

My Kato E231-500 did also started doing this (making more sound and shaking) lately. I wonder what could be causing it, as I don't use it often.

[inobu]

As funny as it seems this is a great tool for troubleshooting as well as cleaning the wheels.

 

 

They come in all three scales. HO, N , Z

 

I would remove the shell to better see what is going on.

 

Sounds like something is too tight.

 

 

Inobu

[Densha]

I don't have any of these and don't intend to get one with the very few trains I have actually... relatively it's quite expensive and I don't know if it will help me to get rid of this sound.

 

I'm always a bit anxious to remove the shell of a brand new train, and I would also need to remove to motor cover. I don't have too good experience with bending of the body after placing it back. Also I don't have much knowledge about the gears stuff and such.

Do you think I should contact Popondetta? Would this be a problem that often occurs.

And would there be anybody who owns a Tomix Kiha 40? If I remember correctly linkey got the Kiha40-350 recently.

 

The sound is especially evident when at slow speed, but at higher speeds you can still hear it. I definitely have heard this sound before from a H0 scale train, but that was only at very low speeds.

[inobu]

The device is offered to a means to help you find the trouble not fix it. Running the train back and forth does not allow you to hear/isolate the area in which the noise is originating.

 

The image offers a solution but one can reason out a facsimile of the device. You can use a piece of track and hold the train in place so you or we can hear the noise consistently as you tape it.

 

You only have a few options. Send it back, sent it to some one who can fix it, or fix it yourself.

 

This is only my opinion and it is based on observation on the forum but I think we have the tendency to receive good that are defective from overseas. This is based on the number of out of box failures that guys complain about.

 

I consistently see the post......I finally got my train and everything is great but I have this problem..............................

 

I have 50 some odd Kato engines and never had one issue. 10 or 12 JDM Kato and no problems. I only buy from specific sellers. One thing for sure the Japanese have a way of packing things. The quality of packing is based on the senders level of care.

 

Now, How does this pertain to you? 

 

If you are going to deal with the JDM (Japan Domestic Models) you will most likely encounter these types of issues. The cost and time of sending things back is a deterrent for most (hint hint).  Sending it out to fix is costly as well. The most economical means is FIY (Fix It Yourself).

 

You are starting off in the right direction by tracking down someone who has the same unit.

 

Just take your time and you will be ok.

Inobu

[disturbman]

Yeah, or just take it to the shop next door and see what they propose. Some of them have a workshop too.

[Krackel Hopper]

I own a Kiha 40-350

 

From what I see, I would venture to guess your train is dry.  You may not need to oil the gears, but it might just need some run time for the oil to work it's way around and get where it needs to go.  I would suggest giving it a "break-in" run maybe 10min in either direction and see if the noise is improving.  If not, I would break out the lube.  Then give it a 20min run in either direction to get it worked in.

 

I think mine had some noise right out of the box.  After getting oiled up, it runs nice and quiet.  However, I do not remember my Kiha ever shaking.

 

I strongly agree with inobu's comments

 

That cleaner is expensive, and no, you do not NEED one.. but, you need to perform the same functions.  Before you start blaming the train, you need to make sure any external variables are resolved.  Is the track clean?  Are the wheels clean?  Just because it's new doesn't mean it's clean.  Is the track level/stable?  Does it have consistent power?  

 

To add to inobu's comments on the Japanese train market.. remember, as far as Kato/Tomix/MicroAce go, once that train leaves Japan the warranty is void.  Now, most dealers will still work with you if there is a major issue, but it is best (and most cost effective) to fix it yourself (if possible)

 

In short - lube it up, run it in, see what happens.

 

That's just this guys opinion.. others might disagree..

[Densha]

Thanks guys!

 

I know what that device is intended for, but I doubted if it would make the origin of the sound make more clear to me.

Some local shop here sells this one: http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10078941 in N scale for €30, but I'll try holding it still first.

 

I doubt there are any external causes: I used a loop of Unitrack with a Kato throttle that don't seem dirty and are very stable and I doubt there's inconsistent power in that small loop. At least that's what I think. I'm quite sure the noise comes from the motor/gears.

The thing is, I don't know if it is a 'defect' or if it's just something simple as that there's not enough oil. I did however let the train run a while in both directions but that didn't solve anything. Anyway, gotta try holding it still tomorrow first, if I can't find out anything I'll let my local shop take a look (or rather hear) at it. Then comes the oil part.

 

That shaking is not bad, those are typical things you start paying attention to when you try to find a cause. My Kato E231-500 shakes worse, somehow, I have to take a look at that one someday too. And a better way to call the Kiha40's sound: squeaking.

[Densha]

Here's the record of the sound:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ovindelft/8263245995/

[CaptOblivious]

That's a terrible sound! Is it constant, or does it increase on curves? Does the frequency increase with speed? Sounds like part of the gear train is rubbing on something.

[Densha]

I know right? It is constant: it doesn't seem to increase in curves nor does it depend on the speed of the train; at full speed the 'normal' motor sound is louder than this awful sound of course, but you can still hear it. So yes, there are two different sounds.

I also noticed how the train starts hanging sometimes, at low speeds, the origin of the sound seems to affect it.

 

I'm starting to wonder what the quality control at Tomix has been doing after this. I searched on google for "tomix キハ40　モーター" and got some results from it that seem to be having similar problems, at least I think that's what they say after it went through google translate.

http://blog.livedoor.jp/ijirin0917/archives/51494782.html (strange sounds, shaking?)

http://senrirail.blog.shinobi.jp/Entry/95/ (has both Kiha40-350 as 400, and his 350 makes a lot of noise while the 400 doesn't, he talks something about grease/oil)

This is what it should be (I think): http://youtu.be/Hjnd9It4aY4

[disturbman]

It sounds a bit like a didgeridoo.

 

If it's the gear, shouldn't the sound change with voltage? To me it almost sound like something electrical frying.

[Densha]

Yeah it sounds very electrical. It's just weird, very weird.

Krackel and other people who own a Tomix Kiha40 (I think some other Kiha's have the same motor too): do you recognize this sound before it was oiled?

 

Pictures of the disassembled model: http://powerel.exblog.jp/9752435/

[CaptOblivious]

Just had a listen, should have done that first! That DEFINITELY sounds like a short circuit arcing! I would disassemble, clean all the points of electrical contact between different parts, apply a bit of Conducta Lube to the contact points (but be careful around the motor! Read the directions carefully!), let it dry, and reassemble. See if that takes care of it.

[Densha]

That's bad news for me: I have no idea how to do that. And what directions do you mean? From the Japanese manual I can't read?

 

Just in case, if I would do that and it wouldn't have any effect, would there be anything else left?

[CaptOblivious]

That's bad news for me: I have no idea how to do that. And what directions do you mean? From the Japanese manual I can't read?

 

Just in case, if I would do that and it wouldn't have any effect, would there be anything else left?

 

No, I meant the directions from the Conducta-Lube (which is a good product to have around anyway).

 

If you did that, and no effect…I am not sure how to proceed. But let's see first.

 

Take this first step: Remove the shell and see if the noise continues.

[Densha]

Ah, right.

 

I agree, we should try this first of course but well... you know.

 

Hope to get back on this tomorrow afternoon (GMT+1).

[Densha]

Shell removed, was much easier than expected. As expected the noise continues, but resonates less. It's coming out of the motor area, that's clear.

Each cab has two leds: one for the white head light and one for the red tail light of course. When it changes directions the led used at each end changes of course. But the thing I found a bit weird is how the other led that should be off is flickering slightly, on a faint level you can't see through the tail light when the shell is attached but you can see without. If you want to I can take a video of it.

[CaptOblivious]

Shell removed, was much easier than expected. As expected the noise continues, but resonates less. It's coming out of the motor area, that's clear.

Each cab has two leds: one for the white head light and one for the red tail light of course. When it changes directions the led used at each end changes of course. But the thing I found a bit weird is how the other led that should be off is flickering slightly, on a faint level you can't see through the tail light when the shell is attached but you can see without. If you want to I can take a video of it.

 

Hrm, that is another clear sign that my diagnosis is right. Can you remove the lightboards without disturbing the remainder? Does it make the sound after removal of the lightboards? Is it possible to reach the terminals of the motor without taking it out? If so, if you apply a voltage directly to the motor tabs, does it still make the sound?

[Densha]

Weee... I lost you... but seeing that made it look like a short circuit indeed. What I don't understand is how my throttle isn't shutting down, it usually does that with short circuits.

What exactly are the lightboards? If you don't know, basically all electrical parts except for the leds are hidden under a plastic interior cover. You can see it at this link I placed earlier: http://powerel.exblog.jp/9752435/

I don't exactly understand what you mean after the lightboard part, but I have to know what they are first anyway.

[Martijn Meerts]

You'll need to remove the plastic interior to get to the light boards. The interior plastic bit should just be clipped on and be easy to remove. If you look at http://pds2.exblog.jp/pds/1/200903/03/43/e0120143_22494683.jpg you can actually see a little bit of them. The white & yellow rectangles are the LEDs and they should be mounted on a light board.

[disturbman]

And if he turned them off using the switches located under the frame? If the boards are the problem, turning them off should eliminate the sound.

[CaptOblivious]

And if he turned them off using the switches located under the frame? If the boards are the problem, turning them off should eliminate the sound.

 

Man, I am not paying enough attention. That is the easy way to make the test I suggested!!

[Densha]

I turned the switches off, the leds turned off but the sound didn't unfortunately. It seemed slightly less loud than before, but that may be just me thinking that. (it was, it's still the same as before whether the lights are on or off)

[inobu]

Its good to see you jumping into the mix.

 

I know you are new to this but its good information in fault diagnosis and isolation.

 

First off the noise is some form of vibration. There are two types here. Mechanical or Electrical. The electrical would be in form of magnetic vibration. The easiest to identify is mechanical but before you that we need to understand the nuances of vibration.

 

Vibration is the movement or the results of an oscillation part. The movement or frequency dictates the sound or tone. One oscillation per minute is a click. 5 or 10 is referred as a clicking sound. As the speed or frequency increases our definition also changes. Click to clicking, buzz to hum, ringing to tone. As you can see the term frequency comes into play.

 

This is how you can apply this concept to identify the type and potentially identify the problem.

 

A mechanical vibration results from something turning and hitting or bouncing against something else. The key here is the mechanical movement. If the movement is slow the oscillation will be in the realm of click or clicks. Which means applying a little voltage will only create a few clicks per minute. So is the wheels are moving really slow (5 RPM) and the vibration/oscillation exceeds that rate you know it is not a mechanical vibration.

 

Now you may need to look at it from a electrical perspective.

 

This means that a magnetic vibration may be occurring based on a fluctuation in current. This means that either the motor is bad or the transformer is flaky. Remember an electromagnetic field created by AC hums or vibrates a lot. Your transformer is AC driven but converted to DC. It could be the problem.

 

To eliminate the possibility you need a clean pure DC source. A good old 9V battery. Just as you set up the test in the video remove the transformer connection and place that 9V battery on the track. If the train is quiet then you know that the problem is in the transformer. If it is still vibration then you know there is a problem in the train, light board or motor (winding,brushes or armature.) Which means you need to buy a new motor.

 

Welcome to the crazy world of modeling.

 

Inobu

[Densha]

I hope and think I interpreted your post correctly.

 

I tried making the motor run as slowly as possible and I think you could certify the sound as buzzing. It's definitely not clicking, but the sound is not constantly the same; it changes in fractions of seconds. Like CaptOblivious already said, I think too it's something electrical.

 

Now, I placed a 9V battery on the tracks. The electrical buzz sound seems to be gone luckily. Thanks for the advice!

I used a battery that was apparently used less than the other, so I had two different speeds from each battery, that confirmed it again. What I noticed was how the led for the other direction still flickered a bit at some parts, but much less than it did with my Kato transformer/throttle.

 

Now I have to find out what part of the transformer system caused this, but more than that I first want to test the motor with a different transformer to make sure that it won't behave like this with other transformers too. I am able to that soon, so that's no problem I hope. At the moment I find that it the motor still is a bit noisy and the sound is not as constant as it should be, just like my Kato E231-500 currently is. Only my Kato Kiha110 and MicroAce Shikoku 2000 series are almost silent.

My Kato throttle is attached to its Japanese transformer (says AC 100V -> AC 15V, wait... 15V while Kato prescribes 12V and it's AC while the throttle input says DC???) which is plugged into a 230V->110V converter. Then there's also the thing that I use both a transformer and converter (which I think is somewhat the same) which is not good I think, and that my converter outputs 110V while the transformer needs 100V. Usually that shouldn't (and it wasn't) a problem though.

 

Krackel Hopper,

What transformer did you use with your Kiha40?