My Japanese N Scale Diorama - NEW Dinning Table Layout

[nah00]

ALL THOSE SWITCHES!!!! The absolute madman!

 

 

 

Hah, I've seen this one before:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miK1kqYUGtA

 

I must admit it's kind of a relief to learn that someone's awesome-looking layout has actually been built professionally, makes me feel better about my own efforts. It's still an awesome layout though.

 

 

That's one of my favorite layouts. I kind of wish it wasn't built professionally to give me hope. 

Edited September 17, 2016 by nah00

[JR 500系]

Hey, very late to the party but I stumbled on these today:-

 

 

Hey no worries man! And you came up with a plan I really like! it has:

 

1) A long running time, great for runs!

2) Some space for diorama

3) 2 independent tracks

4) Option to change the station in the foreground!

 

I will seriously look into this one as a template for my planning... you happen to know where I might get the SCARM plan? Otherwise I would need to draft it out on my own ..

[kvp]

Actually the old plan was for Tomix pre finetrack, but i've redrawn it to current finetrack.

And since we are not permitted to attach scarm ascii text files, i've renamed it to .txt, so just drop the added extension and it will open fine in scarm.

oldplan-20160919-1.scarm.txt

[JR 500系]

Wow that is so nice of you kvp san! Thank you so much! I'm thinking you must be very proficient in SCARM to come up with plans so quickly!

 

Much appreciated mate! Thanks! Now I can look @ it carefully & do adjustments accordingly...

[velotrain]

But with your huge train collection, could you really live with only two sidings - storage tracks?

[Das Steinkopf]

But with your huge train collection, could you really live with only two sidings - storage tracks?

That comment has some merit, Sammy have you thought about a layout which has a suburban car depot on it, that way you have plenty of space to store your trains and display them at the same time you could think of it as a scenic fiddle yard of sorts, you could have a mainline running around it with a station and then a line that leads of to the depot. There is a really nice layout doing the exhibition rounds in Sydney called Electric Car Sidings which is based on one of the former suburban car depots in Sydney in the 1970's, the layout features the tracks of the Bankstown Line and the running sheds that were at Punchbowl with a smattering of suburban houses in the background.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/maikhaly/6206064304/sizes/z/

Edited September 20, 2016 by Das Steinkopf

[cteno4]

You could do the train on a stick.

 

Basically the idea is to have about a meter long slat of wood with track on top that can slip into a siding along the edge of the layout. Run the train onto it and the pop off the slat with the train and carefully move up to a rack on the wall or in a cabinet.

 

Let's you switch trains on/off quickly with only a siding needed.

 

Cheers

 

Jeff

[velotrain]

One thing to consider is that since the layout will be part of a dining table - with a glass cover, it's going to be inconvenient - at best, to change the stock on it.  You may need to make a choice between having a reasonably long run vs. a decent size yard.

 

Have you even considered if access will be from the top, or a side, or end?   At 1 meter x 2 meters, that's going to be a reasonably heavy (not to mention fragile) top to the layout.  I should think you'd want 1/4" (6 mm) glass at a minimum, and likely thicker.  Frankly, I don't think a sheet of glass with those dimensions is realistic in this situation without some bracing support under it, which will detract from the appearance. 

 

A more (or less?) radical solution might be to build a normal dining table, but have the layout stored just under the ceiling, and lowered onto the table by ropes and pulleys.  However, I don't know how "she who must be obeyed" would feel about that.  Another possibility is modules - sections (T-Trak or your own design) set up on the table, although I realize that you very much want a permanent layout.

 

I'm wondering if you've fully considered all of your location options.  For example - is there any possibility of a layout built on casters and stored under the bed?  Would your wife possibly let you build it around the walls of the bedroom?  You would need hinged / detachable sections for the main and closet doors, but this has been done - certainly here in America.  Perhaps space for a largish yard and/or station along one or two walls, and narrow shelf the rest of the way. 

 

I'm not trying to bring you down, and just realized this issue myself tonight.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[splifdfx]

I'm wondering if having an unprotected layout hanging under the kitchen's ceiling is a good idea when considering the potential cooking fumes that go up there : steam, grease, etc...

Edited September 20, 2016 by splifdfx

[JR 500系]

Thanks guys for all the comments! Appreciate them~

 

But with your huge train collection, could you really live with only two sidings - storage tracks?

 

Thank you! But seriously, my collection is no way near many others ~  :P   I just happened to show mine and they didn't show theirs ...

 

 

That comment has some merit, Sammy have you thought about a layout which has a suburban car depot on it, that way you have plenty of space to store your trains and display them at the same time you could think of it as a scenic fiddle yard of sorts, you could have a mainline running around it with a station and then a line that leads of to the depot. There is a really nice layout doing the exhibition rounds in Sydney called Electric Car Sidings which is based on one of the former suburban car depots in Sydney in the 1970's, the layout features the tracks of the Bankstown Line and the running sheds that were at Punchbowl with a smattering of suburban houses in the background.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/maikhaly/6206064304/sizes/z/

 

That's a good thinker, thanks! But i'll be looking forward to more runs so emphasis will be placed on running the trains more, and the yard would be just more for display...

 

 

You could do the train on a stick.

Basically the idea is to have about a meter long slat of wood with track on top that can slip into a siding along the edge of the layout. Run the train onto it and the pop off the slat with the train and carefully move up to a rack on the wall or in a cabinet.

Let's you switch trains on/off quickly with only a siding needed.

Cheers

Jeff

 

Thank you Jeff, you brought up a good point and an equally good solution! It will be hard to place the trains in the display indeed, and more train roster changes are more than welcomed for the layout... so that removable shelf is a mighty good idea to place the trains on easily and then connect to the layout so that they can run on it... Likewise vice versa for the returning trains to come to the empty shelf and back to storage in their case...

 

 

One thing to consider is that since the layout will be part of a dining table - with a glass cover, it's going to be inconvenient - at best, to change the stock on it.  You may need to make a choice between having a reasonably long run vs. a decent size yard.

 

Have you even considered if access will be from the top, or a side, or end?   At 1 meter x 2 meters, that's going to be a reasonably heavy (not to mention fragile) top to the layout.  I should think you'd want 1/4" (6 mm) glass at a minimum, and likely thicker.  Frankly, I don't think a sheet of glass with those dimensions is realistic in this situation without some bracing support under it, which will detract from the appearance. 

 

A more (or less?) radical solution might be to build a normal dining table, but have the layout stored just under the ceiling, and lowered onto the table by ropes and pulleys.  However, I don't know how "she who must be obeyed" would feel about that.  Another possibility is modules - sections (T-Trak or your own design) set up on the table, although I realize that you very much want a permanent layout.

 

I'm wondering if you've fully considered all of your location options.  For example - is there any possibility of a layout built on casters and stored under the bed?  Would your wife possibly let you build it around the walls of the bedroom?  You would need hinged / detachable sections for the main and closet doors, but this has been done - certainly here in America.  Perhaps space for a largish yard and/or station along one or two walls, and narrow shelf the rest of the way. 

 

I'm not trying to bring you down, and just realized this issue myself tonight.

 

It's ok, I appreciate the input and good thinkers. Many opinions offers me a wider range of options and sometimes I might miss out on some angle of thought and it's great to have someone to chip in their ideas and thoughts!

 

I'm going to have to go with a longer run like mentioned above, since the runs are the ones that impresses more... Hence a shorter yard in view of the longer run is anticipated...

 

I am thinking of a sliding type of board... whereby the entire layout is removed via sliding out the bottom board away from the glass table top. This way, it is easy to work on the layout itself and also easy to remove from the table. I do hope the entire layout will not be too heavy though...

 

Hanging from the ceiling would not be feasible, since the ceilings here in our apartment will be quite low, and will hence need another false ceiling to cover up that layout ceiling... It would then be too costly and also too extravagant, not to mention the difficulty in lowering and all... 

 

My bed would be a platform bed, as we need the space below the platform for storage of clothes, as the new apartment is smaller than the current one and we need to find innovative ideas for storage, hence the coaster under the bed idea is out... Also, the rooms are small hence using space on the walls will make the room even smaller, so that would be out too...

 

The layout would need to be something permanent, yet 'temporary' in the sense, as another 10 years we will most probably be moving out of the new apartment to 'elsewhere'... It is with these thoughts that a layout dining table was decided since it is somewhat a permanent thingy but still movable at the same time...

 

 

I'm wondering if having an unprotected layout hanging under the kitchen's ceiling is a good idea when considering the potential cooking fumes that go up there : steam, grease, etc...

 

Indeed, that would seriously deter the idea of having a train layout in the kitchen, especially so with a Mrs that loves to cook...

[velotrain]

I'm wondering if having an unprotected layout hanging under the kitchen's ceiling is a good idea when considering the potential cooking fumes that go up there : steam, grease, etc...

 

Given the proposed size of the table, I took it to be located in a separate dining area, and not the kitchen.

[velotrain]

 

I am thinking of a sliding type of board... whereby the entire layout is removed via sliding out the bottom board away from the glass table top. This way, it is easy to work on the layout itself and also easy to remove from the table. I do hope the entire layout will not be too heavy though...

 

 

I had another idea later. 

 

The glass top could be hinged, but you would want some sort of internal counterweight system to help raise and lower it gradually and gently, and keep it securely raised while working on the layout.  Perhaps even with some sort of "locking" support rod - similar to those on car hoods.

[cteno4]

Sammy,

 

Yeah this is a challenge! But keep thinking!

 

Plate glass for a table top is very heavy. Not something you want to move, hinge, etc. one of our club members made a smaller coffee table layout and when he bought the glass for it it had to be heavy due to the size of the top for safety and it was heavy enough he rarely tried to pull it off/on by himself.

 

Kitchen also means grease in the air and water around.

 

your idea of having it roll out from under the table is good, but unless you have a full layout width on one side of the table you would be having to just work on one half at a time by rolling out partway on each side. Dining tables are the biggest sink of unused space in many places. I still wonder if you will have room for knees when eating.

 

Murphy bed wall fold down probably gives you the smallest stored footprint of like 3-4' wide and a foot or so deep out for the wall and the up to the ceiling. Taller buildings could come off the layout to keep it as thin as possible. Have to glue everything down well, but it being sealed up in a cabinet limits dust and also being vertical means much less horizontal surface area for it to collect on. This kind of storage is being used in the ultra compact NYC apartments for tables to drop from and the storage shelve inside for the stuff usually used on the table (i.e. Hobbies, sewing machines, etc). Would there be room at one end of your dining space to have a fold down cabinet? Then the layout could fold down over part of the table. Rest of the table could be workspace. Table could even be the support that would make the fold down cabinet easier to construct.

 

Sounds like the under bed space is taken already. In grad school I had my bed in a closet (it use to house a rotating Murphy bed that died) that I had 4' up in the air with lots of storage space under it! It was a little climb to get into bed at the foot of the bed!

 

Keep at it you will find a solution!

 

Cheers

 

Jeff

[velotrain]

Plate glass for a table top is very heavy. Not something you want to move, hinge, etc. one of our club members made a smaller coffee table layout and when he bought the glass for it it had to be heavy due to the size of the top for safety and it was heavy enough he rarely tried to pull it off/on by himself.

 

I think hinging the top could work - if it was properly framed and had a counterweight system.

 

After all, glass doors have been around for decades.

 

Sliding it out to the side will require support underneath, during and after the sliding - although halfway on each side would be easier than the entire layout going out to one side.

[marknewton]

There is a really nice layout doing the exhibition rounds in Sydney called Electric Car Sidings which is based on one of the former suburban car depots in Sydney in the 1970's, the layout features the tracks of the Bankstown Line and the running sheds that were at Punchbowl with a smattering of suburban houses in the background.

I always get nostalgic when I see that layout. When I was on the freight at Enfield I'd occasionally work a trip train into Punchbowl in the middle of the night. Later on when I transferred onto the electrics I worked out of there for a while. It was a good depot to work in.

 

Thanks for the photo,

 

Mark.

[JR 500系]

Thanks Jeff for the idea!

 

The Murphy bed wouldn't work, as it would need brackets on the wall, and it wouldn't look so nice in the living room. Also, it will only be permanent for this place and will need to be abandon when I move out from there... I was looking at this idea for our bed too but I think a platform bed would be cooler as it looks Japanese and also the sections on the platform can be used to store things. There are either drawers on the front of the platform or hinge out doors from the top to access the 'hidden' storage areas. The Mrs have also liked this idea so I think it is a go ahead to maximise space for her always increasing rack of clothes... 

 

Thanks Charles! You provided further insight to the table, and i'll try to elaborate my idea further:

 

Firstly the dinning table is placed in the dinning room which is the same as the living room but is different from the kitchen, so I guess that's cool.

 

The glass of the dinning table is on 5 sides of the table, which is on all sides except the bottom. The bottom plate of 2m length x 1m width would most probably be wood, and would sit on rails with rollers to facilitate rolling out the bottom wooden board, which is where the layout sits on. It cant be from both sides as that would require the layout to be split in half to take it out. It can also be accessed from both sides with only one end of the shorter side of the table flushed with the wall. The layout will then be slide out from the longer side from either ends in a whole 2m x 1m board. Given it is wood it should be light enough to slide and move around to work. The idea of having two sides accessible is so that it can be slided out on one side if only one side is required to work on rather than sliding out the entire board.

 

Now that I brainstormed, I think the separate detachable wooden board to be attached to the layout for loading the train into the layout might need to be forgotten... As this would require an opening in one of the longer sides of the table to allow the train and track to connect to... However, since the layout can be slided out then I guess the trains can be easily removed and placed on..

 

I'll try to come up with a CAD drawing soon to get a better idea. I will then pass the CAD drawing to my renovation contractor for quote and construction when the time comes.

[velotrain]

Sammy -

 

I'm confused by some of this:

 

> It cant be from both sides as that would require the layout to be split in half to take it out.

 

I think what Jeff meant was that the layout is not split in half, but that it can be pushed out on either side, depending where you need to work on it.

 

 

> It can also be accessed from both sides with only one end of the shorter side of the table flushed with the wall. The layout will then be slide out from the longer side from either ends in a whole 2m x 1m board.

 

I'm not understanding how you're using sides and ends - "one end of the shorter side".  How about just using "end" to describe the 1 meter dimension, and "side" for the 2 meter dimension?  I think that is how most people interpret them.

 

You say "one end ?" is flush against the wall, but then say it can slide out from either end?  Not if one end is against the wall.

 

 

>  The idea of having two sides accessible is so that it can be slided out on one side if only one side is required to work on rather than sliding out the entire board.

 

This seems to be the very thing you said wouldn't work above ?

 

Charles

[cteno4]

sammy so how big is the table top then? still dont see where knees are going when sitting at the table unless the table top is much larger than the 1x2m layout box under it. or is this a low floor seating table that you dont put knees under the table?

 

the tall murphy storage units are built as a big cabinet basically that you just shove up against the wall and then put a couple of lag bolts into studs in the wall to hold it in place against the wall. all the brackets, hinges and such are done in the cabinet for the fold out table part. so they are very movable.

 

one last idea on the murphy is you could turn it on its side so that it becomes like a 1m high x 2m long cabinet along a wall. like 30cm deep. would just look like a long wall cabinet and could have a nice top for display stuff or even a wall shelving units above for display, books, etc. then whole front panel folds down to the floor for the layout. downside is it would be just off the floor level running (like 5mm thick train board resting on the floor). would not need any attachment to the wall really, but a bolt into the wall would hold it solid.

 

have fun!

 

cheers

 

jeff

[velotrain]

sammy so how big is the table top then? still dont see where knees are going when sitting at the table unless the table top is much larger than the 1x2m layout box under it. or is this a low floor seating table that you dont put knees under the table?

 

Jeff - He discusses this early on in the (new part of the) thread when he's determining how thick the layout box can be and still allow room for legs / knees when seated at the table.  He decided that he had room for two levels of track, but not mountains.  The table top is basically the same size at the layout box length and width dimensions.

[katoftw]

The layout would need to be something permanent, yet 'temporary' in the sense, as another 10 years we will most probably be moving out of the new apartment to 'elsewhere'... It is with these thoughts that a layout dining table was decided since it is somewhat a permanent thingy but still movable at the same time...

This I think is your problem.  You are thinking about a permanent layout when you don't know if and when you might move again.  Just like the old place, you might just have to move one day.  With this uncertainty, I think you really need to think long and hard about going modular.  You need the flexibility of being modular.

 

Build these:- http://www.jnsforum.com/community/topic/9889-my-tokuyama-station-layout/

Edited September 21, 2016 by katoftw

[cteno4]

Jeff - He discusses this early on in the (new part of the) thread when he's determining how thick the layout box can be and still allow room for legs / knees when seated at the table.  He decided that he had room for two levels of track, but not mountains.  The table top is basically the same size at the layout box length and width dimensions.

If the table top is the same size as the layout box beneath then there is no knee room under the tabletop. This is where I get confused.

 

With standard dining room chairs and tables the distance from the top of your thighs under the table to the top of the table is about 3-4" max. So that would mean the layout plus top glass could only be that thick total.

 

Jeff

[Pauljag900]

If the table top is the same size as the layout box beneath then there is no knee room under the tabletop. This is where I get confused.

With standard dining room chairs and tables the distance from the top of your thighs under the table to the top of the table is about 3-4" max. So that would mean the layout plus top glass could only be that thick total.

Jeff

Hi,

For what it s worth. I looked at this a few years ago before I decided to get a shed for my layout,the minimum height of the actual layout,base,double height track and glass came to about 8" minimum.If this is set at normal height for legroom then the table will become higher,if you reduce the height of the table,as Jeff says it reduces the legroom underneath.So the compromises would be,can you live eating at a slightly higher table,or just have it high enough to suit the people using the table,tall people would need to be banned I m afraid! Ha ha.

As for the glass,size and weight etc,I have a friend who is a glazier and when I spoke to him he said to use 6mm laminated glass,like a car windscreen,two layers glued together in the middle,very strong and does nt shatter like toughened will.One piece would be fine but dificult to manoeuvre on your own but two pieces,1m x1m with polished edges just pushed together would also be fine and the weight of it would stop it moving.He also suggested the use of a discreet glazing bar across the join if it did nt look right just pushed together.

I have to say it was a nightmare to plan and I gave up in the end and decided on a shed instead,the size of the layout I wanted was also a factor in this choice.

Not sure if this helps anyone but thought I d share it anyway,

Paul

[JR 500系]

Sorry guys, I think since it is getting confusing through words, it would best be described in pictures eh?

 

Here, this is my pathetic small apartment layout:

 

 

Very small indeed... This sort of shows why I thought of the dinning table concept ...

 

 

Dinning table emphasis. This shows how the table will be placed in the unit, and how the long sides and short sides mean. Basically, one shorter side is flushed to the wall as shown...

 

Lastly, the table itself. I used Excel and quickly drafted out a sketch of the proposed table with dimensions.

 

 

They seem to work as my current dinning table that I have been using for almost 20 years as a clear space of 750mm and table top height of 780mm. Hence increasing the height of the table by a bare 30mm should be comfortable, but of course I have yet to deduct the 5-6mm glass thickness of the table top. However, my current table space for legs is around 750mm subtract chair height of 450mm which is 300mm, but my proposed one takes away another 100mm for clear leg space.  (750mm - 650mm) This will mean that the legs cannot be crossed under the table like Basic Instinct...  

 

 

[katoftw]

What is in the second bedroom?  I'll guess the whole bus collection.  Making it impossible to put a layout in there?

:laughing3:

Edited September 21, 2016 by katoftw

[JR 500系]

What is in the second bedroom?  I'll guess the whole bus collection.  Making it impossible to put a layout in there?

:laughing3:

 

Haha I do hope so too my friend... but unfortunately, it is the room not to be touched ~  :)

 

We had a long discussion and the Mrs actually wanted me to have a layout in the 2nd room, but it cant be permanent like the current one... Hence I decided all together not to touch that room at all... instead we will emphasis on the dinning table since it is sort of a centre piece in the living room when visitors come... Now it would be strange to have visitors in your room now, wouldn't it?  :P

 

Another idea was a ceiling run through, but that would be silly as no one would keep looking up at the running trains... The trains have to be at eye level for maximum exposure and viewing...