My Japanese N Scale Diorama - NEW Dinning Table Layout

[HantuBlauLOL]

You can run shinkansen on 280 at full speed.. Just don't create a S curve with it.

[JR 500系]

So today I tried one full day with Scarm to see what I could come up with... I need to build the layout and get it going...

 

I came up with another plan, very much similar with what kvp san has generously drawn for me, in-coporating curves with R280 min but mostly R317 and R354 so they are shinkansen friendly...

 

Sorry I wanted to upload into my photocbucket but the website refuses to work now.. So I attached it as a picture below..

 

Yellow is Ground level tracks

Red is Elevated tracks

Green is inclination and declination tracks

 

Notice there are a couple of weird points that do NOT connect... I do not know why this is so and I tried very hard to join them smoothly but to no avail...

 

I have also yet to add in the yard, but there is a line there with the buffer end to signify where the yard might be...

 

I need more practice with Scarm... Cant seem to get it perfectly right...

 

Cheers!

 

 

[katoftw]

tracks are too close to eachother. incline near overhead station.  and incline under bridge.

[JR 500系]

tracks are too close to eachother. incline near overhead station.  and incline under bridge.

 

Thanks for the comments katoftw!  :)

 

I had to compact the tracks a little to make the most out of the layout, hence the nearer tracks. Only problem is some don't wish to connect to each other on the software.. which I cannot figure out why. I do hope though that practically the tracks can be connected as there should be so allowance to connect left or right..

 

The decline is directly in front of the overhead station... Looks weird, but that seems to be the only place I can fit in the decline to connect to the ground tracks. (Red overhead, Yellow Ground).

 

The incline below the bridge is just starting to climb, so head room should be enough.

 

Which brings me to the next point, how do these inclines/ declines work? First time i'm working with them... How much distance do I need; i.e. how many track sections of 280 lengths, before I can smoothly bring the trains up or down without making too steep a gradient?

 

Thanks for your inputs!

[cteno4]

Jr500

 

Did you calculate your grades there? They look to be about 4% and can be hard for some trains.

 

Grade is calculated as rise over run. So usually a 2" rise to station or overpass height will need 100" to get a 2% grade. 2% is the usual safe model train grade for most all equipment, 3% works for many but may be a strain for longer trains,many 4% is tough for most trains and impossible for some.

 

You look to have maybe a 50-60" run to get up 2" so like 3.5 to 4% grade.

 

Jeff

Edited August 17, 2015 by cteno4

[JR 500系]

That was most useful Jeff san! Thank you!

 

2nd question: I'm not sure how to find out the length of run for incline/ decline that I have... Can I find out how much length I have? Jeff you mentioned 50-60" length, how did you discover this from my layout? Thanks!

[railsquid]

You can use SCARM to help calculate heights and gradients, see e.g.:

 

http://www.scarm.info/index.php?page=help&topic=11

http://www.scarm.info/blog/tutorials-and-examples/how-to-check-the-grade-of-given-railtrack-slope/

 

(very useful especially as I'm planning what will be a twisty layout over 3 levels)

[katoftw]

6 pieces of S280 for incline/decline.  i'd assume diagrams on tomix pier and overhead boxes.

Edited August 17, 2015 by katoftw

[cteno4]

6 pieces of S280 for incline/decline

This makes a 3% incline to go up 5cm

 

You are most welcome jr500 San!

 

On the track plan it's roughly 4.5 -5 280 sections for the inclines so 3.6-4% incline.

 

Most track planning software has a function where you can mark two places on the track and it gives you the linear distance between the down the track center. Then just divide that into your rise and multiply by 100 to get the percent.

 

i would stick to 3% max. If you have the track, set it up on the table and give the various grades a try to see how they run. Higher grades also make for harder transitions to level with sectional track, actually best to try to do the transition in a long piece of track and slowly bend it vertically rather than having it at a joint where you get a big verical kink and issues with traction, decoupling and even derailment if on a curve.

 

We had a club member that did about 6 different big unitrak layouts over a few years and he did a lot of pretty steep inclines and always had these issues along with a few burned up trains he ran too hard up the steep inclines, but he loved cramming. A lot of track onto the layout and going up let him do thsi a lot more.

 

Cheers

 

Jeff

Edited August 17, 2015 by cteno4

[JR 500系]

Thanks guys for the headsup on this!

 

 

You can use SCARM to help calculate heights and gradients, see e.g.:

 

http://www.scarm.info/index.php?page=help&topic=11

http://www.scarm.info/blog/tutorials-and-examples/how-to-check-the-grade-of-given-railtrack-slope/

 

(very useful especially as I'm planning what will be a twisty layout over 3 levels)

 

That's interesting, but I tried and I couldn't get it to work... Perhaps something is wrong somewhere... Can they work on curves too?

 

 

6 pieces of S280 for incline/decline.  i'd assume diagrams on tomix pier and overhead boxes.

 

Thanks! So if 6 is around 3%, then it would have to be 8 S280 then?

 

 

This makes a 3% incline to go up 5cm

You are most welcome jr500 San!

On the track plan it's roughly 4.5 -5 280 sections for the inclines so 3.6-4% incline.

Most track planning software has a function where you can mark two places on the track and it gives you the linear distance between the down the track center. Then just divide that into your rise and multiply by 100 to get the percent.

i would stick to 3% max. If you have the track, set it up on the table and give the various grades a try to see how they run. Higher grades also make for harder transitions to level with sectional track, actually best to try to do the transition in a long piece of track and slowly bend it vertically rather than having it at a joint where you get a big verical kink and issues with traction, decoupling and even derailment if on a curve.

We had a club member that did about 6 different big unitrak layouts over a few years and he did a lot of pretty steep inclines and always had these issues along with a few burned up trains he ran too hard up the steep inclines, but he loved cramming. A lot of track onto the layout and going up let him do thsi a lot more.

Cheers

Jeff

 

Unfortunately I do not have any gradient piers hence i'm totally new to them... And is trying to use the software to get what I need so I don't need to buy what I wouldn't require...

 

The thing is i'm still quite confused. I tried on SCARM and it didn't seem to want to work for me... What is the correct numerical figure that I should put on the height so that it is correct as per Tomix overhead tracks height? (Tomix recommend 55mm, so do I place in the number 55 in SCARM?)

 

I understand that 6 S280 straights give around 3%, so to aim for a 2.5% max I would require perhaps 8 S280 is that right? So how do S280 lengths match up the curves like R317 or R354? As curves are longer, does that mean 6 S280 can equate to perhaps 5 R317?

 

Sorry for the confusion as i'm not totally understanding this gradient concept and is totally new to this. I hope to achieve a good gradient like a 2.5% max as Jeff suggested to minimise strain on my trains... I do have 10 car consists like Tomix E5 or E233-0 or E231-1000 and they only have one motor car...The last thing I want is to have to minimise car lengths as I have tried very hard to achieve 10-car length friendly for this...

[railsquid]

 

That's interesting, but I tried and I couldn't get it to work... Perhaps something is wrong somewhere... Can they work on curves too?

 

 

Yes, any track section. It's kind of tricky to work out how to use the functionality, but once you do it's pretty versatile.

 

Sorry for the confusion as i'm not totally understanding this gradient concept and is totally new to this. I hope to achieve a good gradient like a 2.5% max as Jeff suggested to minimise strain on my trains... I do have 10 car consists like Tomix E5 or E233-0 or E231-1000 and they only have one motor car...The last thing I want is to have to minimise car lengths as I have tried very hard to achieve 10-car length friendly for this...

 

Compromise is difficult... Personally I decided to stick to 4-car rakes max to get the most out of the available space, which means I can get away with 4% gradients.

[JR 500系]

Thanks guys for the feedback so far ~ Appreciate that.

 

Just popping the question again, is there any chance that I may know why my tracks wouldn't connect with each other? I worry the tracks will not work this way...

 

Also cant seem to get the gradients to work in SCARM too... Something i'm not doing correctly here... Is there someone who is very versatile in SCARM perhaps can help a novice here please?

 

Thanks in advance!

[katoftw]

I doubt that ground level S-bend will work.  The ends of the track pieces aren't even close.

Edited August 19, 2015 by katoftw

[katoftw]

You are really gonna have to make a decision one length of train versus 4 platform stations.  those points are taking up too much space for 8 car consists.

[kvp]

Also cant seem to get the gradients to work in SCARM too... Something i'm not doing correctly here... Is there someone who is very versatile in SCARM perhaps can help a novice here please?

Turn on the height display, select the height number of one end of a piece, then press +/- until you get the correct height. The gradient will be displayed at the middle of the piece. Do this with both ends of every piece. If you start from ground level and raise the tracks this way, then you can control the gradients for every piece. Just rember to have smaller gradients at the start and at the end of each ramp to make a gradual curve at both points. This avoids disconnected couplers and/or the car bottoms hitting the top of the rails at the transition points.

[JR 500系]

Thanks guys for the advices.

 

So I decided to go ahead to get the incline/ decline pier set so that I can physically play with them to get the physics of incline/ decline correct.

 

It seems 6 lengths of 248s is comfortable enough for the trains to climb up, not so worried about climbing down since it's much simplier.

 

I've made a video of 6 lengths of 248s (with 4 being R391/ 354 curves) for inclines:

 

 

And I only used 5 of the 10 inclines/ declines piers included; the numbers S (near 0), 2, 4, 6, 8 & 10 (full height pier). I cant seem to get the rest in otherwise it will become very long...  

 

And here's a decline video, shouldn't have issues with this:

 

 

 

I'm glad I made this experiment so now I can fine tune the layout and finally buy the tracks to build them proper! It's been WAY too long delayed....  :(

 

 

 

[cteno4]

Jr500,

 

Good you made the test to confirm it works for you! You have about a 3% grade there, which is the top end of the comfortable range and should be ok for shorter trains. Also shim the bottom piece where it meets the table a few mm and it will spread the vertical kink out some more. Some rapidos hate these vertical transitions and decouple.

 

Jeff

[JR 500系]

Thank you Jeff!

 

From the physical experiment, I have benchmark to have 6 lengths of 280s to achieve a 3% grade and pray my 10 car consists to be able to make it up!

 

Fine tuning the layout to its final stages, please see attached picture.

 

I am now tabulating using a spreadsheet to see what tracks I need to order and what I have... And the PC tracks (Canted tracks) on the ground are giving me a little headache as they require a 22.5 curve piece (called approach-curve track) before the curve track (canted) and then another 22.5 to bring it down to level. So technically 2 curves of R317 will be 1x R317-22.5 approach track + 1 x R317-45 curve track + 1x R317-22.5 to get it, I hope i'm right in the formula!  :P

[JR 500系]

Meanwhile... At the Toei Bus Terminal ~~~~

 

 

[JR 500系]

Hi guys, I got a question. Anyone knows what exactly does this do?

 

 

エンドレールE  

 

I thought initially that it is only an illuminated end point, but it seems to be more than just that...

 

It seems to be out of stock though... Any other suggestions for illuminated Track end points?

[HantuBlauLOL]

It automatically change the train's direction after that train hits it.

[JR 500系]

FINALLY:

 

 

The stuffs are in, so we have our work cut out for us this weekend!

 

Finally more action and less talking! Hope to get this up really quick to see where my planning goes wrong ~~  :)

[JR 500系]

Yesterday marks the official start of the rebuilding of Takahashi town ~~

 

I am glad the SCARM model works great on practical! The tracks and viaducts seems to be correct for now, placing in and measuring up as the software said it would. So far so good! Managed to get in the most tricky part of the layout, the curve turnouts into the overhead station at the back.

 

The foam will be a hill eventually where we will have a shrine on the top of it. But the level of the foam is wrong now and needs to be higher a little...

 

While building, I envy those that stay in Japan... Al least when they are out of an item they can just go to the nearest store to get them off the shelf!  :)

 

 

[JR 500系]

Reconstruction Day 2 --

 

Keeping the momentum going, the gradient part is now up. Seems to be doing really good!

 

The missing parts are the curves R354-R391 viaduct pieces that I'm waiting for the post to bring in...

 

The strange thing is most if not all of the Tomix viaduct pieces are either out of stock at stores or already out of production. It seems really strange and I think Tomix is going to come out with a new design for the overhead viaduct really soon. I had a hard time especially with the 280s straight, and had to compromise and make some changes to use this instead:

 

 

 

Works exactly the same way as the straight viaduct 280 pieces, same length and with a bonus of the included column support that can be adjusted to suit climbing gradients (which I need). The only thing is it is more expensive than a set of 2 pieces of 280 viaduct pieces... 

 

Working on the ground level soon and gonna get that hill in the upper right to support the curve turnouts soon ~

 

 

[railsquid]

The strange thing is most if not all of the Tomix viaduct pieces are either out of stock at stores or already out of production. It seems really strange and I think Tomix is going to come out with a new design for the overhead viaduct really soon.

 

Tomix seem to produce in batches so it's likely anything currently unavailable but not discontinued will reappear in the next few months.