successor to JR East E351 Super Azusa

[miyakoji]

Here's an article from the Shinano Daily News about JR East beginning development of a replacement for the E351.

 

http://www.shinmai.co.jp/news/20120901/KT120831ATI090024000.php

 

Not a lot to see, it includes a few vague details about this new rolling stock and the Chuo Line itself.  The rolling stock is to have big windows so passengers can enjoy the line's scenery, it will have electrical outlets and wi-fi, presumably so passengers can ignore said scenery.  There will also be some improvements needed on the line.  The article mentions the curves between Kofu and Takao, which I assume are why the E351 is a tilting train.

 

From this Ompuchaneru thread http://rail-uploader.khz-net.com/index.php?id=1050961 one can get plenty of images of the E351 and glean some interesting ideas.  Amongst the posts there is speculation that:

•the E351 won't be repurposed but scrapped - I'd love to see a few shortened sets go to a deserving private railway or two

•its successor will not tilt, which makes sense considering the track improvements that are said to be necessary

•its "super" designation will change from meaning "fast" to "comfortable"

•one poster asks that the successor not be based on the E257 (ouch), which, if tilting is not needed, seems like a possibility

[westfalen]

Another train I rode on when it was almost new biting the dust.

[Densha]

Noooo.... I wanted to ride this train at least once. It was one of the Japanese trains I already knew of long before I started really getting into it.

[The_Ghan]

I take it the 351 will be running for a year or two yet?

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[Davo Dentetsu]

Blimey, so soon?

 

Must be plenty of alternative things it could do, surely?

[bikkuri bahn]

Apparently the E351 tilting system bogies cause undue wear on track when going at high speeds on curves, as it lacks the self-steering mechanism present on later bogie designs such as found on the JR Tokai 383 series or JR Hokkaido kiha 283 series.  Also, such tilting mechanisms require a lot of maintenance, which is one reason JR Hokkaido has switched to simpler air cushion tilting systems on the latest models.

 

I think few if any regional private railways would be interested in having these units, given the maintenance requirements for just the bogies.  These railways tend to have leisurely operating schedules, which would not require such features as tilt.

[disturbman]

Ah! the Super Azusa... This was the first IC train I rode in 2010 from Tokyo to Matusmoto. Very nice ride but I can't remember feeling like this train was tilting at all. Either the additional degrees of cant were imperceptible to me used as I'm to the French railways or was the tilting mechanism possibly disable? I know that the tilting ICE don't use that feature anymore, could it be the same for the E351?

[Sacto1985]

Hold it right there. Doesn't JR East already use a more modern trainset on the Super Azusa train with the E257?

 

 

Why don't JR East just build more E257's with upgraded features to replace all the E351's?

[miyakoji]

Based on the article, I think they either need tilting trains or track improvements to keep up the schedule that the 351 does on the 'super' service.

[Densha]

Hold it right there. Doesn't JR East already use a more modern trainset on the Super Azusa train with the E257?

If I'm right they are used on the Azusa services and not on Super Azusa, but I can be wrong. I like the design of the E351 better anyway.

[miyakoji]

Hold it right there. Doesn't JR East already use a more modern trainset on the Super Azusa train with the E257?

If I'm right they are used on the Azusa services and not on Super Azusa, but I can be wrong. I like the design of the E351 better anyway.

Yes, you're right, I didn't read Sacto's post properly.

 

I think few if any regional private railways would be interested in having these units, given the maintenance requirements for just the bogies.  These railways tend to have leisurely operating schedules, which would not require such features as tilt.

 

I knew you were going to say that. 

[The_Ghan]

So, is economics finally going to force the "style" out of Japanese trains? 

 

As Kofu Station - Passenger Services Since 1980 is one of my themes, I have both the E257 and E351.  I'm a real fan of the trains like the E351 and appreciate the significant amount of forethought embedded in the finished product.  The E257, on the other hand, has a very suburban look about it which just can't be hidden despite the interesting colour scheme.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[Densha]

Yes, you're right, I didn't read Sacto's post properly.

I wasn't trying to say that because I think you're right, but the result is the same anyway. So far I get it the Azusa isn't just the appropriate train for an Super Azusa service, which I assume has to do with the speed and related. I doubt the E257 series can be upgraded with functions like tilting because it's very complicated I think and may not fit with the train type. That's probably why they decided to improve the curves so that they can use trains without tilting, and considering that it's Japan I don't think they are going for a slow looking train for a "supaa" service, but the first post of this topic may prove otherwise.

[miyakoji]

Yes, you're right, I didn't read Sacto's post properly.

I wasn't trying to say that because I think you're right, but the result is the same anyway.

 

  I know.  Interesting point about slow looking trains, and I think Ghan is saying the same thing, the 257 does look very suburban.  I'm not sure if JRE's disposable policy is getting into their express rolling stock.  Even if it isn't being incorporated outright, some of the concepts probably are.  That's one particular thing I like about the 351, 251, 651, and 255; they were before or right around the time of the 209 and seem to be the older, heavier designs.  I could be wrong though, maybe they just seem that way.

 

The track wear that Bikkuri mentioned is surprising.  The 351 wasn't the first tilting train, it was the 381 as far as I know, and the earliest of those came 20 years before this, I would have expected them to get that tech sorted out (and there was a prototype predecessor to the 381, the 591 iirc).  Plus JRW has so many 381s still in service, and they appear to be keeping some of the former Kuroshios that I thought they were going to scrap right away.  Perhaps the 381 doesn't have this problem.  How did they miss that with this model?  Also, there are some physical matters here, the weight of the train, the desired speed, the superelevation of the track--that force has to go somewhere, doesn't it?

 

So, is economics finally going to force the "style" out of Japanese trains? 

 

 

Seems so, especially with JRE.  Although JR West is giving the older JNR-era trains the single-color treatment, which works to varying degrees depending on what area it's in and therefore what color it gets, and then all the new ones are stainless with adhesive stripes, just like everything else.  So, basically, yes.  Some of the Kansai private railways are still buying decent looking trains, aren't they?

[Densha]

You're not the only one thinking so. It has something to do with the design but I don't know exactly why either. An E233 compared to an E209 for example looks much more cheaper, just like most cellphones look these days for example, plastic like. Especially the front. May be because of the color, but I still don't really get it exactly.

 

I never knew that the 381 was a tilting train, very unexpected but good to know.

[Guest ___]

Glad to see the golf balls are going out of service soon, never liked them.

[Mudkip Orange]

This whole "disposable train" thing seems a lot like toyota's decontenting starting in the 90's, at some point are we going to have unintentionally accelerating trains?

[miyakoji]

This whole "disposable train" thing seems a lot like toyota's decontenting starting in the 90's, at some point are we going to have unintentionally accelerating trains?

did you see that video I posted?

 

http://www.jnsforum.com/index.php/topic,7073.0.html

[stevenh]

Glad to see the gold balls are going out of service soon, never liked them.

 

Hah! Really? The headlights were it's kintama?

It seems to have had a review in it's early days... and, like the Koploper, had it's interconnecting doors removed:

 

[bikkuri bahn]

Gold balls, interesting moniker

 

*Too bad hybrid/electric cars don't have clutches.  Manual trannys- safest (and most fun) option.

[The_Ghan]

Mrs Ghan was driving that day, btw !!!!

 

Yes, I really want to ride the E351 when I'm there next month.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[Sacto1985]

Getting back on topic, :happy9: I wonder has JR East considered running upgraded 287 Series EMU's with the tilting feature as the trainsets for Super Azusa? I know that the 287's are replacing many older EMU's on JR West limited express trains that start and end in the Osaka/Kyoto regions.

[miyakoji]

I wonder has JR East considered running upgraded 287 Series EMU's with the tilting feature as the trainsets for Super Azusa? I know that the 287's are replacing many older EMU's on JR West limited express trains that start and end in the Osaka/Kyoto regions.

Well, as for the tilting itself, they'd probably like to do away with that for cost reasons.  But, running the 287 is an interesting idea.  Keep in mind that it's running on Kuroshio services, which had been 381s and 283s, both tilting models*.  As Bikkuri had mentioned in discussion of the 287, tech and material improvements have allowed it to match or nearly match the performance of the older models, without tilting.  Lighter materials allow more control over weight distribution and center of gravity, and of course it will accelerate and decelerate faster, plus the new traction motors and brakes are probably stronger anyway.  In the case of a replacement for the 351, keep in mind that the 257 (on regular Azusa service) is fairly new, and it apparently can't keep the Super Azusa schedule.  That, combined with the track wear that Bikkuri mentioned, makes me think that the scheduling may require them to push these pretty hard and that the tilting is still necessary, even with latest railcar design.

 

*The Kuroshio was the second service to see the 381, in the late '70s; the first was the Shinano in the early '70s.  JR Central's 381 successor is the 383, built in the mid/late '90s, is a tilting train.  Slightly older tech/materials, maybe these days this would not have to be a tilting train.  The third and last service to get 381s was the Yakumo.  This was 1982 I think, when the Hakubi Line was fully electrified.  Prior to that the service ran with KIHA181s.  I'm not aware of JRW testing 287s on the Hakubi Line, maybe the tilting is still necessary, maybe they just haven't done it because they've got enough 381s left.  In fact there are some videos on YT of Kuroshio-livery (which I like very much) 381s on Yakumo service.

 

[Sacto1985]

If the information in Wikipedia is correct, the 381 Series trainsets built many years ago were extensively overhauled and modernized in recent years. That explains why they're still running them on the Yakumo train between Okayama and Izumoshi Stations. And believe me, given the fairly sharp curves on the Hakubi Line, the train really need the tilting feature for fastest operations. I'm not sure if the 287 Series trainsets have this feature, because they'll need it to run on many fairly sharp curves found on the Chūō Main Line. I do know that the 383 Series trainsets--which do tilt--operate on the JR Central portion of the Chūō Main Line with the Wide View Shinano limited express between Nagoya and Matsumoto. Maybe it's time to build a bunch of upgraded 383 trainsets to replace the E351's?

 

By the way, one possibility is to buy 287 Series trainsets upgraded with active suspension, so it has most of the benefits of tilting but at lower maintenance cost. That's what JR Hokkaido did with the KiHa 201 and 261 Series trainsets.

[Guest ___]

Gold balls, interesting moniker

 

*Too bad hybrid/electric cars don't have clutches.  Manual trannys- safest (and most fun) option.

I meant golf balls, I hate typing on an iphone.