Help for harbor layout

[Krackel Hopper]

@ Krackel Hopper

 

Thanks for your recommendations.

I wish I had a big house, but I live only in a apartment, I might just settle for a small layout , perhaps just purchase

a starter set if budget would be a concern.

 

A temporary layout does not require a big house.

 

A temporary layout is just setting up track on the floor.. running trains for an hour (or however long) and picking it all up when you're done.

 

My Kato V11 track set is my "temp layout" it circles the side table in my living room and goes under/around the dining room table.  It's roughly 3ft by 8ft.. soon as I'm done playing with it, I disconnect all the track, but it back in the box until next time.

 

If you just joined a club, you should see if the clubs N-scale members are doing anything as a group!

 

There are several different modular layouts, such as N-trak, T-trak, oNeTrak and many many more..

 

If your group is doing this, you may want to consider building modules to add to the group.. these vary from small 210mm x 308mm up to bigger 2' x 4' sizes.. depending on the type of modules the club is using..

[xSasa]

Good evening,

 

@Mr Frosty

 

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10093967 but this one is Kato.

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10015504 this one is tomix but doesnt have oval track.

 

@Nick_Burnham

 

Im just too excited! So many things going on into my head, without getting first into the basic. I appreciate all the help, suggestions and advices, maybe I should try take a breather first.

Anyways, Im looking forward for tossing up more ideas.

[xSasa]

@Krackel Hopper

 

I see, but my plan is to have it fixed on a table or hang it on a wall.

 

The club doesnt do anything as a group, nothing for now, maybe in the future.

[disturbman]

Speaking of starters set... In my opinion they are fine if you really are into the trains they are proposing but I would rather make my own train (maybe by hunting some second hand pieces, like at Popondetta, to lower the price), buy a trainless starter/track set and some more rails and then find an old second hand transfo in my local hobby shops. Those things are quite heavy and expensive plus any (N-scale) transfo will do, you just need to scavenge the Tomix or Kato feeder cable (very very very easy, doesn't require any skills) so you can hook it up to your transfo.

[cteno4]

xSasa,

 

you might also think modular/sectional if you are tight on space. You could have a larger set up that way, but break into smaller pieces that could be stored easily. no need to follow any modular standard, just the idea of a sectional layout where you come up with a track plan and adapt it to a few modules so it can break down to smaller bits (term modular is usually used if there is a standard with track locations, sizes etc and sectional is if you slice up a layout into smaller bits w/ or w/o standards for sizing or track locations).

 

might think of trying to break along scene lines so each becomes a nice diorama that might look good on a bookshelf when being stored as well. this might be tough with the harbor smack in the middle, but maybe thinking sectional might change your thinking. with that small of a layout its going to be hard to fit even a small container ship/barge in that water area so one trick is folks just do the dockside and water is off the edge of the table. perhaps the container yard and dock scene could be the big thing that stays up all the time and then you could do some thinner modules to do a loop out from this that could easily be stored most of the time. you could then at least do some fun switching and such in the main yard w/o it.

 

for harbor ideas take a look at one of our club member's layout, he has a great harbor and container yard. one joke is that if you look at it you realize the container ship could never maneuver through the channel to get to its dock! he named the ship Kobayashi Maru because of the situation.

 

http://japanrailmodelers.org/photos/kurtslayout/index.html

 

the other advantage to a sectional layout is its easier to work on scenery bits as you can just work on one section at a time on the table and get easy access all the way around it. also helps keep you moving along better as you can see more getting done in smaller bits, many folks will tell you the larger the layout the easier to get stalled at any number of points. folks who do ttrak modules can become very voracious modelers as they have a lot of completion reinforcement and can starts  a vicious cycle up! also more acceptable when you have blank sections and completed ones with a modular/sectional layout than with a full layout, just more acceptable to the mind's eye so less frustrating while construction is under way. also easier to keep your costs down in the initial phase and then just do scenery and buildings section by section as you get $$. as ghan noted it can be an expensive hobby, but you can also do things to keep costs under control and spread out more with some planning.

 

one last thing a sectional can do for you is to give you the ability enlarge it later if you plan for expansion in the original design.

 

just a thought.

 

track selection is a tough one if you are in the Philippines, not sure what you can get there locally and prices. shipping from japan will add shipping costs. for a layout that you nail down then any sectional track or flex track will also work as well as the tomix and kato tracks and can be a lot cheaper at times. old atlas sectional track works wonderfully if you nail it down carefully, but sucks if you dont! sometimes you can pick up stuff like this very cheap and work w/in what you have. one of our club members did a wonderful little 2' x 3' over and under layout with switching puzzle sidings out of a box of old atlas track he was given.

 

cheers

 

jeff

[JR 500系]

 

 

What's your budget?  Seriously, this isn't a cheap hobby.  I've spent over $20k and there is plenty who have spent more than me.

 

And a lot that spend much much much less that you. ;)

 

Agreed disturbman,

 

HHmmm now now where have i heard that before... *looks at The_Ghan*

 

 

Hi Xsasa!

Just to add on a little, i'm also very fresh into the hobby, like say just started April 2012! Throughout this 4 months, i've been buying so much trains and dioramas the Home State Finance Officer (wife) has eyes looking at me larger than those on Astro Boy... What the others say are very true, you have to go slow, plan well, and study. I plunge & bought the Tomix Nozomi 500 starter set from HS, and slowly discovered i wanted a Kato layout more.. That hurted a little as now i have quite an abundance of extra Tomix tracks, but not too bad as i can still use them for my overhead tracks, which are Tomixs. Like Jeff has mentioned before, shipping starter sets can be very costly, and it MIGHT cost lesser to just buy the tracks, train & controller separately to reduce shipping.The starter set is priced more attractive definately, but the shipping is really too much to bear.

 

For myself, i do not have a large space for layout, and was playing with temporary ones for about 3 months, before embarking on a more permanent one. I biught 2 tables to extend my existing table, so i have an almost 3m Length x 1.5m layout. This is good for running shinkansens, which is aprt of my interest, and ground level for running local trains, with an extension to a rural path up the mountain.

 

As for yourself, i think basically your layout is a harbour type, and looking at the links you put up for Mr Frosty, i think you are much into freight trains and cargo. It should work ok if you are staying with that arrangement, as a shinkansen one would definately require a longer layout to run nicely.

 

End of the day, planning and knowing exactly which direction to go for this train hobby helps in budgetting, at least for me, and of course, the people here are as usual very experienced and friendly and always willing to help!

 

Cheers! ~

[JR 500系]

These are Hobby Search prices. Remember that many of the curved pieces come in packs of 4 and the points include an additional curved piece. Plaza will probably be about 5-7% cheaper. They don't have the bridges in stock but could probably order them if you placed a bulk order.

 

actually the other way around plaza is 5-7% more on ebay and not always that great on combined shipping charges at times thru ebay. perhaps if you email jun a complete list and request a total with shipping you will get a better than ebay price.

jeff

 

Hi Jeff!

 

I didn't know that! Do Plaza takes orders off ebay? HHhmmm.. Gotta give it a try man! Should be cheaper as Plaza then need not pay for ebay fees...

 

However, I beg to differ for the 5-7% difference, as i have noticed and made comparisons for many items on both Plaza and HS and discovered Plaza is now actually sometimes cheaper than HS! They have recently reduced their prices (i think from July 2012) for all of their items, as citing a typical example, the basic set E2 Tohoku Shinkansen Tomix 92360 as seen here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/JR-Series-E2-Tohoku-Shinkansen-Hayate-3-cars-Tomix-92360-N-Scale-/360483777815?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item53ee81ed17 costs US$108 in Plaza, but costs here: http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10112109 US$113.29 in HS. I recalled these 'basic sets' are previously sold in Plaza at US$118, which made HS cheaper. Minimal differences, but adds up i think. However, Jeff is very true that Plaza does a rather poor job at combining shipment, and shipment costs should be more than HS using the same method. I haven't really made a true comparison, but i have recently ordered quite a large order from Plaza and they charged me US$83.120 for the for SAL... Which i felt it was really rather expensive. Gotta make a compairson on the same items again on HS for true comparison, but some items Plaza offered are no longer in stock in HS so...

 

End of the day, i think it's more of a to-each-it's-own thing, some homework price comparison should help out ~ Cheers!

[cteno4]

Jr

 

I made the comment looking at the track pieces you all were commenting on, those track prices are higher on plaza. For the most part over the years i've found plaza has been a bit higher than hs, but he has been holding is us prices more stable as the yen inflated so some items on ebay for a while are less than hs. One odd thing that was pretty consistently cheaper total shipped sal from plaza over hs was the tomytec vehicle sets for some odd reason. Only like $3. Anyhow not a huge difference, but usually check on most things before I buy.

 

I've not done a off ebay sale with plaza, but have talked with jun about special orders and larger orders and he was willing to look into it, was a while back though, but worth a shot if you have a ledger order you are thinking about.

 

If you do do a larger order I would suggest talking shipping prices as tha sal sounds high. But if a heavy order sal gets expensive if over 2kg (for a while it's actually cheaper to do ems!)

 

Jeff

[The_Ghan]

Im just too excited! So many things going on into my head ...

 

Yeah .... he's hooked !!! 

 

Just remember xSasa, the skid-roads to hell begin with a very gentle down-hill slide .... you'll be skipping lunch to save money for trains soon. 

 

BTW, I started with this basic track set: http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10072758  ... A few months later I added this: http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10070380  They make a handy temporary layout in DC while I'm building my DCC monster.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[xSasa]

@ Disturbman

 

Noted! What is a Popondetta?

 

@cteno4

 

I thought about the sectional layout, I even like the layout of Sir Madog and  besides that, I also want the train to loop, so I seek help with you guys.Here

in the Philippines,resources are scarce, theres no hobby shops that sells model train. There are local seller online but most scales are in Ho.

 

@JR500

 

Im just curious, why kato over tomix? At first I was thingking of all kato but as

seeing tomix tracks, its quite realistic than kato.I was worried also about the shipping cost, so might as well get the necessary stuff and track pieces so there wont be a waste.

 

@The_Ghan

 

Im already skipping lunch, just joking!  Your Link is broken, I cant view it.

 

Another question, Ive seen a decoupler its cool, do you think it can be added to the revised track plan of Mr. Frosty?

 

Mr Frosty are you cooking something?  I havent heard from you for a while. And guys if you have a proposed track plan, bring it on!

 

Thanks

[Mr Frosty]

At first I was thingking of all kato but as seeing tomix tracks, its quite realistic than kato.

I agree, I also prefer the look of Tomix tracks.

 

Mr Frosty are you cooking something?  I havent heard from you for a while.Thanks

Maybe.

[The_Ghan]

@ Disturbman

 

Noted! What is a Popondetta?

Popondetta is an online retailer.  I've never used them because I find dealing with BigMan and PlazaJapan easier.

@JR500

 

Im just curious, why kato over tomix? At first I was thingking of all kato but as

seeing tomix tracks, its quite realistic than kato.I was worried also about the shipping cost, so might as well get the necessary stuff and track pieces so there wont be a waste.

You will probably find the discount and shipping price on the Tomix track come out about the same as buying Kato track locally.

@The_Ghan

 

Im already skipping lunch, just joking!  Your Link is broken, I cant view it.

All of my links seem to be working.  I've just tested every link in the thread.  The only one not working is "My First Japanese Layout" embedded in your post.  It might have been corrupted by your browser during cut-and-paste.  Just click on the link in my post earlier.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[cteno4]

sasa

 

If you do have a kato distributor there in the Philippines you might get it cheaper than shipping from japan. here in the US we get it at a pretty good price and even in some of the local stores as well so its very economical or ship a huge box of track for $5-8 at a good 30% discount. But its not that way a lot of places in the rest of the world.

 

Track shipping costs from japan can mount. SAL is usually much cheaper (but takes 2 weeks) but is not tracked and issues of lost packages in various places around he world seem to be in the last bit of the trip near home. EMS is fast, insured, and tracked, but can get expensive. best value with it is to have a larger amount shipped at once. but big track set boxes can really cost a lot to ship. best bang for the buck shipping is larger amounts of individual track packs probably. some shops (like bigman and poppendetta) only ship EMS, others will give you SAL option. if you do try sal i would see if you can find out how folks in your area have faired getting these kinds of non tracked/insured packages though.

 

Yes what sir mad dog has done is a great way to get going and then expand on, or you can roll your own larger idea with a layout that just comes into pieces for easier storage. usually when you try to do a really small sized layout you really have to give up a number of options and focus on just one particular aspect to make anything work well, so thinking how you might have part of the layout only be up temporally to get some of the larger aspects (like running larger trains etc) might help, but keep part up all the time so you have some thing to keep playing with and working on when you have little bits of time.

 

we have a club member here working on a modular layout with just a double track main line that will be modules about 75cm x 30cm. this gets him just the amount of scenery he wants and can run larger trains on and be really easy to store, transport, and setup. so its all about trying to find the combo of things you want and try to come up with an approach that can get you as many things as you can. at times you may find you have to finally give up something in your list if its just not working w/in your constraints and other wants. always a balancing act!

 

definitely just getting a simple loop of track and maybe a siding is a must to get yourself going. having something to run trains on to get you started is really good. also you can start playing with adding some buildings with time to see what you like doing. you can also mockup possible scene ideas with simple cardboard, blocks of wood, etc with a track loop like this. This can be a really powerful way to think through ideas and just have fun! Our club layout started out as us just setting up track free form on a large platform and setting building around it and its the way many japanese do all their train play!

 

cheers

 

jeff

[xSasa]

@ cteno4

 

There's no distributor here for both, almost all the trains are bougth overseas. Do you live in California?

 

I think shipping here would be a little cheaper than the US? This wouid be my first time to order online if ever, thanks for the tip about shipping.

 

Thanks for all the tips, keep it coming, maybe somewhere in the middle of the discussions I can come up with a concrete plan.

 

Attached is a track plan, what can you say about this?

 

Goodnight everybody!

[cteno4]

xsasa,

 

bummer, then i expect your best bet is buying from japan then. shipping from the us to the Philippines is probably more expensive and many shops dont ship overseas here in the us. also tomix is pretty non existent in the us market (one supplier but not sure how long that will continue). lots of folks here use unitrak because we have kato-usa that distributes it at a good price. if you want to check out us prices from a good shop that does ship overseas mb kleins is an old stallwart: http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/

 

shipping from us overseas just about anywhere is pretty pricy these days. the ems equivalent is about the same price, but nothing to match sal. but do make sure sal is a safe alternative for you locally as no tracking or insurance.

 

im on the other coast in washington DC area, use to be a californian, grew up there!

 

an issue with your plan is you have two reversing loops there and those are tricky to wire up for smooth functioning. they are one of the more advanced wiring/operating elements, so might be easier to just have double track in the center section for your beginning layout.

 

what sort of things do you think you want to do with the layout? kinds of trains? are you into switching or just want the trains to keep running?

 

one other note with the harbor scene idea is there are very few N scale ships available. there is one guy in florida that makes n scale container ships but they are like 30" long so would be a bit big on a little layout like this. there is an old coastal tanker model that comes up on ebay (usually about $20-30) that could make a reasonable little coastal container ship (bout 16" or so long). some places use barges for small coastal container transport as well. there is also some small tugs and fishing boats from tomytec. also a few other misc boats like a patrol boat and small coast guard cutter, but not much else. leaves you with thinking of doing some scratch building for your boats if you want to really get into them. there is a good thread here on n scale boats and ships:

 

http://www.jnsforum.com/index.php/topic,804.0.html

 

cheers

 

jeff

[xSasa]

Good morning,

 

You bet, at least your resources there is pretty good unlike here.

 

I have some friends there in California, probably ask them sometime to check out model train stuff for me.

 

Oh I see ,Ive just came across with that layout,just want to have your thoughts in it.

 

Switching locos would mean, you have to use DCC? If that so, no DCC for now, just want to train run. The train would be between EH-500 or ED75 

 

About the ship, probably use the tomytec tug boat and the barge

[cteno4]

Don't think buying track in the us and shipping to the phillippines would be cost effective with the shipping. Also not a lot of Japanese trains for sa,e in the us, most of us buy ours directly from Japan.

 

Switching locos are smaller locos that move cars around freight yards. Some folks with very limited space will make little switching layouts with a small freight yard where up can so various puzzles to move the case around to put together a freight train in a particular order of cars in as few of moves as possible. Usually called switching puzzles.

 

Any loco can be converted to dcc, some are easier to do (some have plugs in them you can just plug the decoder into and others you have to do some work to wire them in yourself). Cool to start off w/o dcc, you can always add it later if you want to. Lots of folks are happy w/o it as well.

 

Take a look at the tomytec fishing port buildings, really has a lot of interesting port scene potential.

 

Jeff

[xSasa]

Jeff

 

Noted.

 

What do you think of Mr Frosty's revised track plan, do switching locos there is possible?

 

Planning to have the fish processing plant and the fishing pond together what do you think of the scene? And if space permits, want to add Oil  depot and over the other side would be the container port terminal.

[cteno4]

Yes mr frosty's plan does give you sidings to do some switching on as well as a loop to just run a train.

 

With the fishing port I don't think you would Find the track running along the dock, but probably on the land side of the warehouse and processing buildings. Fish would go from the boat to dock to processing to warehouse to train.

 

Container docks are deep as you need room to unload the containers, move them and store them. May be tight. A small container ship or barge is going to need a dock like 24" long so it might tight to fit in there. Not sure if any load directly from the ship to train.

 

Oil storage tanks and refineries can be found adjacent to unloading docks, but usually a bit further away than space here. The tanks could be fuel tanks and a dock be a fueling dock. Fueling docks can be smaller and jut out some and larger vessels just contact it on a short bit. Sort of a wide stubby pier. Lots of pipes running out from the tanks on shore out onto the pier. Usually a little office out on the short pier.

 

I m still thinking that you are thinking of doing a lot in a small space. I really encourage you to ger some cardboard and mock things up and play some. It's a very powerful way to design stuff like this. Track plans tend to get us thinking in 2d way too much some times and scenery is very 3d. Few can imagine the full 3d from a 2d plan. You are really doing much more of a diorama here than a layout so I think looking at those aspects in 3d first is really important, then look at how the track and trains would interact with it.

 

Do you want this to be a Japanese scene?

 

Cheers

 

Jeff

[xSasa]

Im thingking of placing refrigerated container on the fish port scene.

 

I might omit the barge if thats so, on the storage tanks, Im just thinking to add it on but not really necessary, might cramped the space.

 

Perhaps I might be overdoing it, I'll just focus on the fish port and the container port.

 

Definitely a japanese scene

[Hobby Dreamer]

Hi xSasa 

 

I did not read all the posts in the thread but Jeff's last one about 2D vs 3D is a good point. If you are limited on space, concerned about price and also worried about shipping, why not have your friends in the US send you flex track for at least part of your layout.

 

Flex is a lot cheaper and you can squeeze a bit more in each curve. And, by the looks of your original track plan you don't really need ballasted track for part of the loop.

 

You can also go 3D by using viaducts where it may not make sense for the track to be at ground level. OR, you can have the track go below grade, maybe underground. For a limited space layout you could do a "folded figure-8" (i think that is what it is called) so you essentially have a longer running length.

 

Someone mentioned trams. You could have a loop for passenger or cargo trains and use part of the inner space for a small tram loop or, even for shunters for a container yard or port.

 

Just some thoughts.

 

But, before you go crazy investing time and money, maybe you can buy a cheapish Kato or Tomix track set where you get a transformer/controller and track and try running an inexpensive train.

 

You will learn a lot before you buy and maybe get some ideas beyond track plans..

 

Cheers

Rick

[xSasa]

@ Rick

 

I cant really say now if they will have some spare time to look some stuff for me, I'll try to talk with them this weekend.

 

Right now I heart out the japanese track, but lets see, nothing yet is final. I'll keep a note on that.

 

Maybe, I should print the whole plan at the exact size and mock things up, to see a better perspective on how the outcome will be.

 

Anyways, thanks for your thoughts and advice. Im crossing my finger hopefully next month I'll be able to buy tracks and train. 

[cteno4]

Corrugated cardboard, matte knife, and hot glue gun are your friends! Just play! You can do it full scale or reduce to 1/2 or 1/4 scale to save space and go faster. This is really a great way to design and learn.

 

Get a loop of track, a train and a power pack as well to get yourself going running trains. Also a few buildings to start playing with and detailing. The tomytec buildings are pretty inexpensive and easy to assemble, fully painted, and start thinking on additions and how they all go together. Some of the green max building kits are very inexpensive, but require more assembly and need full painting, but are good tests to see if you enjoy doing that.

 

Jeff

[xSasa]

@ Jeff,

 

I can do that together with my kids.

 

 

I went over to the place of the founder of our local club, and he showed me his model train collection. He had some european models down to US union pacific and a few pieces of tomix and kato as well. Good news is, he would help me to order at HS and have some extra tracks to sell.

 

Thanks for all the help guys, I really appreciate it! I'll take a look every now and then in this post to ask questions and advice.

 

Cheers to all!

[cteno4]

hey that sounds like a great visit and resource to get you going. club members probably also have some good ideas, talents and resources you may be able to draw upon. great if you can get some inexpensive track and maybe a train to play with. always good to make sure you are totally bitten by a hobby before you get too deep in with the wallet! see if you can play on some other folks layouts as well (most folks like to do this) and you can also pick up ideas of what you want yours to do/not to do.

 

thats a wonderful idea to do some mockups with your kids. i bet they take to it like a duck to water, age and schooling tend to beat the go play and fiddle out of us. its really an intuitive design process as it tends to help you find that combo that is just right and is usually hard to put your finger quite why, but its just right. a lesson ive learned from my design mentor who is a real master at it and mentored under some greats himself and they all did this process. even gehery does it with crumpled paper and tape. i think that guy thinks in 4 dimensional space or more and struggles with inverting it into 3 dimensional space and this and lots of scribbling helps him thru the process to find that perfect intersection. so play!

 

hs is really easy to deal with, very good service and can communicate well in english.

 

good luck with all this!

 

jeff