Help for harbor layout

[xSasa]

Hello guys,

 

I'm a new fan of model railroading and I want to try this hobby and build one also. Planning to acquire the kato track, attached is my harbor layout track plan. As you can see in my layout, I dont know what would be the degrees of the curves to use,where to place the feeder track, what turnout to use, how many straights do I need, If my layout is under 4 feet in length?

 

Hope to hear from someone, comments and suggestions are welcome!

 

Thanks

[Mr Frosty]

Hello. XTrackCAD is a free track planning programe. It has profiles for Kato track. Definitely worthwhile downloading and "having a play" with. It will list all track used in a design.

http://www.xtrkcad.org/Wikka/HomePage

[The_Ghan]

Hello xSasa,

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

AnyRail is another excellent product for laying out a track plan.  Personally I find it easier to use.  The download is free and allows up to 100 track pieces, I think, per layout.  For larger layouts you would need to buy the retail product.

 

Either xTrackCAD or AnyRail will solve your questions about how many pieces, lengths of segments, etc.

 

Please read this thread about important basic track layout considerations:

• My First Japanese Layout
  

 

As to how often to place the feeders, that will depend on whether you're going to be running standard DC or Digital.

 

Please read these important threads if you're thinking about doing a Digital layout:

• DCC: What Do You Guys Think?
  
• DCC Based Automation With Transponding
  
• Making Precise Slow Speed Stops (Automation), and don't forget Martijn's links at the end of the thread ... they're very important!!!

 

I hope all of this helps you with a way forward.

 

Knock up a track plan using some software and post it here.  Make sure you've read the My First Japanese Layout first ... getting those concepts right will save a lot of debate.  We can then give you some feed back on how to sexy-up the layout, track feeds etc.

 

Feel free to ask further questions in-thread.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[Mr Frosty]

If you want to keep the layout to under 4 foot in length, you will be restricted by needing to use small radius curves. Here is a 4 foot x 2 foot layout I "knocked up". I used Tomix track, as I already had the parameters set up. Using the 140mm & 170mm mini curves, I believe I created a reasonable facsimilie of what you wanted. I added a couple of extra sidings to increase "operational value". Using switching locos and short bogie cars, you could run some good operations with this. B-Train shortys would also work well.

 

Here are the exact track requirements.

 

Count | Description

------+------------------------------------------------------

    2 | Tomix Wide Tram Track 1791 Straight 140mm

    1 | Tomix Fine Track 1021 Straight 5.51 140mm

    6 | Tomix Fine Track 1022 Straight 11.02 280mm

    2 | Tomix Fine Track 1023 Straight 2.85 72.5mm

    6 | Tomix Fine Track 1024 Straight 2.75 70mm

    2 | Tomix Fine Track 1025 Straight 3.89 99mm

    1 | Tomix Fine Track 1099A Straight 0.72 18.5mm

    5 | Tomix Fine Track 1112A Mini Curve 5.51R 140mm 30°

    2 | Tomix Fine Track 1112B Mini Curve 5.51R 140mm 60°

    4 | Tomix Fine Track 1113A Mini Curve 6.96R 177mm 30°

    3 | Tomix Fine Track 1113B Mini Curve 6.96R 177mm 60°

    2 | Tomix Fine Track 1231 Mini-Turnout 140mm-R30

    2 | Tomix Fine Track 1232 Mini-Turnout 140mm-L30

    2 | Tomix Fine Track 1422 LED Buffer Trk 80mm

    1 | Tomix Fine Track 3029 Plate Grider Bridge 5.51 140mm

    1 | Tomix Fine Track 3030/31/32 Truss Bridge 11.02 280mm

[The_Ghan]

Mr Frosty,

 

Nice job.  Looks quite compelling actually, an affordable scale for signalling too, if xSasa wanted to go down that path.

 

xSasa,

 

Please confirm if the 4' length is the "whole of layout", "straight section only", or "length of train" .... it's not quite clear from your post what you mean because, to me, it implies a 4' "whole of layout" length which would mean your layout is just a foot wide if the plan is drawn to scale.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[JR 500系]

Oh that is so very nice Mr Frosty! Thanks for sharing! The harbour scene looks great! But i think you'll need opening bridges for the large ships to enter into the port perhaps? Thanks for sharing XTrackCAD too! I've tried the Anyrail but only limits to 50 rails per layout hence it's a little limiting if you wanna place it all out, unless of course you buy the full retail product. Gotta try the XTrackCAD!

[The_Ghan]

JR,

 

I think the AnyRail product is easier to use.  For the price, it's really worthwhile.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[xSasa]

Thanks guys for the replies,

 

@ Mr Frosty,

 

Thanks for the link, i'll try to learn the software and play with it. I really love your proposed track plan, it really does look great. This could be the dream layout and its gonna fall on a 4 x 2 layout, as I only have a limited space and budget. Im having difficulty understanding Tomix tracks bec. of all japanese text, maybe more searching and reading. But thanks to your itemized tomix track pieces, computing the total track price would be so much easy. Do this tomix tracks is equivalent to kato tracks?

 

Another thing, im a liitle bit slow about the legend in the layout, is the blue and red arrow would be the boat?, and the horizontal brown would be the station platform?

 

@ The Ghan,

 

The size of the layout would be 4 x 2, yesterday I was not sure about the size, I just estimated the 4' length, but with mr Frosty's proposal, 4 x 2 would be ideal to me. I'll also check the Anyrail software, thanks for the link.  I havent read the My First Japanese Layout, and the other links, Ill check it out later. I' ll just run the train on a standard DC format.

 

@ JR500

 

you have a point there, but my solution there is to elevate the whole layout? what do you think?

[The_Ghan]

xSasa,

 

You'll find the Tomix / EasyTrolly Modeller's Site has a full description of how Tomix track works, why some of us think it is great, and what all the parts are for.

 

As you're going for a small layout, I suggest you look at the A Coffee Table Sized Layout thread as well.  I've posted some links to sites that specialise in small layouts.  The links posted by cteno4 towards the end of the thread are also very interesting.

 

Cheers,

 

The_Ghan

[Mr Frosty]

@ Mr Frosty,

I really love your proposed track plan, it really does look great.

Thank you. I did rather enjoy creating that.

 

Do this tomix tracks is equivalent to kato tracks?

Tomix tracks are "similar" to Kato, but not easily interchangable. I personally prefer Tomix, as I think the track bed is a little more realistic due to it being thinner than Kato. However, there isnt anything wrong with Kato track and a similar layout could be constructed using that track system.

 

Another thing, im a liitle bit slow about the legend in the layout, is the blue and red arrow would be the boat?, and the horizontal brown would be the station platform?

Indeed. Red & Blue objects are boats and brown items are platforms & buildings.

[Krackel Hopper]

A word of caution..

 

The track plan Mr. Frosty gave uses tight radius curves (177&140) that many trains cannot run on.  It also uses 140mm turnouts which could also cause trouble for some trains.  Finally, with your layout 4' long you will be limited to small 2 to 5 car consists.  In the plan Mr. Frosty created, many of those spurs will only hold 2 or 3 cars depending on what type of rolling stock you are running.

 

I am in no way trying to deter you, or say that Mr. Frosty's track plan is no good..  I just want you to understand that the engines, rolling stock and size of consist will be quite limited.

 

Kato makes tight radius track, (150, 183 & 216) that may be easier to get.. plus if you already have kato track and turnouts.. I suppose it would be cheaper than investing in a completely new track system.

[Mr Frosty]

Indeed. I believe, I did mention that the layout would be best suited to switching locos, short bogie cars and B Train shortys.

Some of the shorty container cars would look good here.

[The_Ghan]

Actually, the Enoshima trams would look good running on this layout ... pretty prototypical scene too ... bridge over the river, etc.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[xSasa]

Been very busy over the weekend.

 

@Mr. Frosty

 

Ive already check the track parts at hobby search, and It would be 300 usd which is way out of my budget. 

Do you have any suggestions to cut down the cost? Maybe another sample layout. About the tight curves, the description says that it can only be run on a certain type of train. I want the Jrf eco bear with 3 to 5 freight cars and one tram type train to run in the layout.

 

@ Krackel Hopper

 

thanks for your advice, but for now I dont have any track nor a train, Im just starting out on this hobby. Hopefully in the coming months Ill be able to procure trains and tracks.

[The_Ghan]

xSasa,

 

Just a few things:

 

1. What's your budget?  Seriously, this isn't a cheap hobby.  I've spent over $20k and there is plenty who have spent more than me.

 

2. Was the $300 for Tomix track?  I'm surprised!  Perhaps it adds up.  It is probably the cost of bridges and turnouts.  I can look into it but don't have time to look at it until the weekend.  You might find it best to start with a Tomix track set that includes a power supply, even though it is much larger than the 4' x 2' that you're looking for.  I think my set was about $180.  Again, I'll check and get back to you;

 

3. Send the same supply list to Bigman and PlazaJapan ... contact them via msg or email.  Both of these guys usually beat Hobby Search for price and are very reliable.

 

I'll do what I can to help, but it will be over the weekend.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[disturbman]

What's your budget?  Seriously, this isn't a cheap hobby.  I've spent over $20k and there is plenty who have spent more than me.

 

And a lot that spend much much much less that you. ;)

[Mr Frosty]

I think you may have made an error with your maths. 

 

    2 | Tomix Wide Tram Track 1791 Straight 140mm                $5.26

    1 | Tomix Fine Track 1021 Straight 5.51 140mm                  $3.66

    6 | Tomix Fine Track 1022 Straight 11.02 280mm              $13.74                 

    2 | Tomix Fine Track 1023 Straight 2.85 72.5mm                $3.20

    6 | Tomix Fine Track 1024 Straight 2.75 70mm                    $9.60   

    2 | Tomix Fine Track 1025 Straight 3.89 99mm                    $3.20

    1 | Tomix Fine Track 1099A Straight 0.72 18.5mm                $6.41

    5 | Tomix Fine Track 1112A Mini Curve 5.51R 140mm 30°      $6.70

    2 | Tomix Fine Track 1112B Mini Curve 5.51R 140mm 60°        /

(only need 1 pack as additional 30 deg curves are supplied with the points)

    4 | Tomix Fine Track 1113A Mini Curve 6.96R 177mm 30°      $17.40

    3 | Tomix Fine Track 1113B Mini Curve 6.96R 177mm 60°        /

    2 | Tomix Fine Track 1231 Mini-Turnout 140mm-R30            $54.92

    2 | Tomix Fine Track 1232 Mini-Turnout 140mm-L30            $54.92

    2 | Tomix Fine Track 1422 LED Buffer Trk 80mm                  $20.60

    1 | Tomix Fine Track 3029 Plate Grider Bridge 5.51 140mm      $ 8.01

    1 | Tomix Fine Track 3030/31/32 Truss Bridge 11.02 280mm  $12.59

 

Total $199.81

 

These are Hobby Search prices. Remember that many of the curved pieces come in packs of 4 and the points include an additional curved piece. Plaza will probably be about 5-7% cheaper. They don't have the bridges in stock but could probably order them if you placed a bulk order.

 

I will have a go at making something simpler/cheaper and using larger radius curves. You will be restricted by the 4 foot length though. However, I do like a challenge.

[cteno4]

These are Hobby Search prices. Remember that many of the curved pieces come in packs of 4 and the points include an additional curved piece. Plaza will probably be about 5-7% cheaper. They don't have the bridges in stock but could probably order them if you placed a bulk order.

 

actually the other way around plaza is 5-7% more on ebay and not always that great on combined shipping charges at times thru ebay. perhaps if you email jun a complete list and request a total with shipping you will get a better than ebay price.

 

jeff

[Mr Frosty]

I have redrawn the layout using larger radius (243mm) curves and the 280mm turnouts. I have had to stretch the layout to 4'6" to accommodate this. I have left out the illuminated buffer stops, as they were quite expensive. You can get some low cost clip on buffers for a few $s. Hopefully this will still fit your available space.

 

Parts list-

 

Count | Description

------+------------------------------------------------------

   2 | Tomix Fine Track 1021 Straight 5.51 140mm                     $3.66

   8 | Tomix Fine Track 1022 Straight 11.02 280mm                  $13.74

   1 | Tomix Fine Track 1023 Straight 2.85 72.5mm                    $3.20

  10 | Tomix Fine Track 1125 Curve 9.56R 243mm 45°               $22.90

   1 | Tomix Fine Track 1143 Curve 9.56R 243mm 15°                 $4.12

   2 | Tomix Fine Track 1243 Turnout 280mm-R30 (elec)            $52.64        

   2 | Tomix Fine Track 1244 Turnout 280mm-L30 (elec)            $52.64

   2 | Tomix Fine Track 3029 Plate Grider Bridge 5.51 140mm      $16.02

   1 | Tomix Fine Track 3030/31/32 Truss Bridge 11.02 280mm    $12.99

 

Total $ 181.91

 

 

Although the larger curves will allow running bigger locos, you are still somewhat limited by train length. This will always be an issue with small layouts. I dont know what your skill level is, but some of the loco kits from Aru Model would be worth considering.

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.arumo.com%2F

[Krackel Hopper]

@ Krackel Hopper

thanks for your advice, but for now I dont have any track nor a train, Im just starting out on this hobby. Hopefully in the coming months Ill be able to procure trains and tracks.

 

I would recommend you consider your trains before track.

 

If you decide you're interested in an EH500 with container cars, you'll want bigger radius curves and possibly a bigger overall layout.  Using Tomix FineTrack or Kato Unitrack, a lot of people (including myself) setup temporary layouts on the floor or a table.  This allows me personally to run things like my 7 car Dr. Yellow or my 8 car N700 Sakura R10 that do not fit on the little 2x4 layout I am working on.

 

If you're interested in trams, switcher locos, or small steam engines.. you'll be fine using the tight radius curves and could make a cool little 2x4 layout to run them on..

 

Being completely new to the hobby, I would strongly suggest you start with a train you really like, and an oval of starter track.  Depending on your location (if you live in the USA) you can get a Kato Unitrack M1 set for around $75 USD..  This gives you a nice loop of track with a power pack.  The only thing to be extra careful about is shipping.  Shipping these track sets from Japan costs almost as much as the track set itself because they come in such bulky boxes.. but having said that.. both Kato and Tomix make starter sets that come with a 3 or 4 car train.. Hobby Search has these lists at the top left under "N Scale Starter Set (Tomix/Kato)"

[The_Ghan]

What's your budget?  Seriously, this isn't a cheap hobby.  I've spent over $20k and there is plenty who have spent more than me.

 

And a lot that spend much much much less that you. ;)

 

Agreed disturbman,

 

Folks, please don't take my comment the wrong way, but this is an expensive hobby.  When people ask me how to allow for on a layout I usually say around $1000 per square meter.  Sound wrong?  Let's look at xSasa's layout then:

 

4'x2' = 8'² = 0.74m² = $740.

 

$50 = Painted baseboard with trim

$180 = Track (excluding tunnels, crossing, bridges, etc)

$100 = Controller and wiring

$30 = terrain substrate

$120 = terrain finishes, rock, trees, grass, paint, roads, realistic water, extra ballast, etc.

$60 = station platforms and buildings - one on loop and one in siding, plus a loco shed

$50 = special features: bridge, tunnel, level crossing, etc.

$240 = $30 per square foot for buildings, people, cars, jetty, boats, containers, etc. ... this won't go far either ...

 

.... I'm already over $800 ... and I haven't allowed for catenery (dummy or working), electronic turnouts, working signals, street lighting, etc.

 

Like I said ... it gets expensive ...

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[The_Ghan]

Frosty,

 

I like your updated plan with r243 curves.  Apart from trams, you can also run a 3 car 115, 205, 223 or similar consist on these ... or a 4 car Odakyu ... or the 3 car Nagoya 8800 series.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[xSasa]

Good afternoon,

 

@ The_Ghan

 

1. My budget is roughly 350 usd.I joined a local club here and same as you are saying, indeed it isn't cheap and

  almost all of them are into HO scale.

2. As Mr. Frosty is saying I somewhat made an error for it would only 199.81 usd.

    Im considering the starter pack, if my budget doesnt permit me to acquire the proposed track plan

3. Currently the website of bigman doesnt ship to the Phils, I'll check later the plaza japan.

 

Wow, the 1000 usd per square meter budget, thats a lot of money! I can even buy a second hand car here for that amount. I wish Ican buy all the stuffs needed at one time, but thats alright.

 

@ Mr Frosty

 

Sorry for the error, thanks for the effort, another nice layout. How about if I bought a starter set, what additional

tracks to buy to achieved the revised track plan? Do I only need 1 power pack on this kind of layout. About my skill level,

lets say,Im just like a baby trying to learn my first step. 

 

@ Krackel Hopper

 

Thanks for your recommendations.

I wish I had a big house, but I live only in a apartment, I might just settle for a small layout , perhaps just purchase

a starter set if budget would be a concern.

 

And guys please bear with me, for I only want to maximize all the possibilities,the cheapest possible, and satistifying as possible.

Thanks for all the help, keep it coming!

[Mr Frosty]

Do you have a link to the starter set you are considering? I can then see what track is included.

[Nick_Burman]

Good afternoon,

 

Wow, the 1000 usd per square meter budget, thats a lot of money! I can even buy a second hand car here for that amount. I wish Ican buy all the stuffs needed at one time, but thats alright.

 

 

Take it easy, then. Rome wasn't built in one day, you are trying to bite everything at the same time. Start by getting your trains and an oval of track, then when you feel that you are ready to plunge into a layout, go for it. Anyway, one of the fun parts of model railroading is exactly taking one thing at the time and planning the next thing you want to add...

 

Your track plan lends itself to a rinkai tetsudo (coastal or port railways - lines built to connect the industries and port facilities with the main line) theme - small diesel locos (DE10, DD13 and similar kin) hauling container or tanker trains (or mixed freight, if you move to an earlier era), plus maybe a diesel railcar (a la Kashima Rinkai).

 

Cheers NB