Easy DCC for Tomix Track Cleaning Cars

[inobu]

I never heard that the Tomix track cleaning car was made by Atlas.  I shall check with my supplier about this fact.  I know that Tomix track cleaning car 6421 was released in 2001.  I heard that Atlas released their product in 2004.  So my guess was actually the other way around.  I find this curious as I didn't know Tomy had such a relationship with Atlas. Please if you can provide further informations.

 

Ocha that could be the case and I have it reversed. The only other information I can provides is something to the effect of :dontknow:  

 

I think you missed the whole point of my post which was the installation of a decoder.

 

Oh, the front weights are 7oz each or 20 grams.

 

1 cubic inch of lead is 6.55 ounces.  

 

 

Inobu

 

Clarification- the weight data is for weight modification concerns. The Z125 is small enough to fit in between the weights with a little milling the weight loss can be negligible.

[inobu]

First my disclaimer: I have shelved my cleaning car based on a few observation years ago and I will share that later on but the DCC installation got me to look at it again. The experience of the installation can help future installations.    

 

I had time to go over the circuit board and came to a few conclusions that changes the way I will do my installation. I read the Atlas manual a few times and realized that the usual English translation/wording miscue are not there. That made me wonder who authored it and its interpretation.

 

The Atlas manual states "Run Slowly when under the CL power mode position. When running at high speed, select the On position." I got the feeling the translation may be an assumption on the technical writers part.

 

CL power mode could essentially mean Constant Lighting powered track and ON is for regular DC power. The run speed suggestion may be from an observation perspective. Seeing speed variation as a results of the CL circuitry. Being that this is a Tomix product and Tomix has CL it should be the case.

 

I think the cleaning car has two power mode settings (CL and Straight DC). This means that you run either one or the other not both.  

 

I have always believed in modifying under the designed standards of an component. Meaning modify into a design not over it unless its absolutely necessary. That is why I mention the functionality of the board and wiring the decoder behind the circuitry. I was under the assumption that the circuitry protected the motor from being over driven now I don't think that is its primary function.  

 

Milling out the rear weight to make space for the decoder and wiring it down to the pickup is all you need to do. The important step is the speed map and limiting the applied dc voltage.

 

So the disclaimer.  

 

In N Scale I always try to look at things prototypical from the scale perspective.

 

The cleaning disks are .67" in diameter which is 8.9'  or 3 meters in the real world. How many yards of track could you clean in the real world before the disk would need to be changed. Remember the grime on the rail has to be transferred somewhere.

 

The other realization is that the dust, dirt and carbon particles is not to scale. I used a Q-tip and one head could do one section of track. These pads can only do so much.

 

I know there will be a few smarty pants saying its better than nothing and I can only say technically speaking peeing in the ocean is filling it up but in reality it contribution is negligible.

 

nothing beats a bright boy so far. 

 

Inobu    

[cteno4]

Inobu,

 

i agree the tomix disc only goes so far and have never thought it did as good a job as the roller cars where you get much larger surface areas and a bit more action on the inside of the rail head as well. those you can swap quickly with clean handiwipe and keep going.

 

what i do like with the tomix is the vacuum function, ive seen that pick up piles of puzz which would probably eventually get sucked into gears!

 

jeff

[inobu]

Jeff,

 

Yes, the vacuum function is the strong suite but you have to dial it in to be effective. Thats where setting up the speed table is critical. The fan speed and train speeds needs to be matched. If not the train out runs the vacuum and the puzz is just moved and not removed.

 

In any case I think it is worth while to convert to DCC but only depend on it to do as you pointed out.

 

Inobu

 

 

[Guest Closed Account 1]

I hate watching people cleaning tracks with dirty rags on disposable razors glued to sticks. Or greasy erasers on sticks. Just clean often.

 

Actually, nothing beats elbow grease. As for a hands off approach then it's the CMX CL that succeeds.

 

The Tomix CL is part of a trio to clean the miles of Ntrak. Tomix CL, Aztec Predator with dry roller, and then CMX wet wipe car.

 

When you are dealing with nasty dirty track then the 3 work well. Otherwise I just run the CMX CL by itself.

 

I manually clean points.

[mbloes]

Jeff,

 

Yes, the vacuum function is the strong suite but you have to dial it in to be effective. Thats where setting up the speed table is critical. The fan speed and train speeds needs to be matched.

 

 

 

I think you may be overthinking it.  I have my tomix cleaning car's address set to a unique number (99, to be exact).  I select this and then use the controller's throttle to select an appropriate vacuum speed.  Then, when the vacuum is running, I hook the cleaning car up to another loco (with another address), select it and let it rock!  The vacuum feature will continue to run while I can modulate the towing loco's speed.  No speed tables or anything.

 

Am I missing something?

 

Edit: Btw, I am using a dz123 or 125 in my cleaning car - I forget which.  So no boards or drop-in decoders or anything.

[inobu]

I am often accused of over thinking things until the problem occurs. Then it is how did you know that was going to happen?   

 

 

"Am I missing something?"

 

It all depends on how you wired the decoder to the motor.

 

If you wired the decoder to the Blue common and white and yellow power feed. You will be running the motor at a constant speed/voltage which could burn the motor out.

 

Wiring the motor with the gray and orange wire leads will allow you to control the motor speed via speed tables.

 

With that you can adjust the vane speed which in turns controls the level of suction. It is all about efficiency and how to obtain it. 

 

I think I should move to Germany.

 

Inobu

[Guest Closed Account 1]

Wiring the motor with the gray and orange wire leads will allow you to control the motor speed via speed tables.

 

Which speed steps work best (best vacuum), 50 or 75 on a handheld such as the Digtrax DT402D or an iPhone?

[mbloes]

 

Wiring the motor with the gray and orange wire leads will allow you to control the motor speed via speed tables.

 

 

Correct, I guess.  But even more fundamentally, you are able to control the motor speed via your throttle on your command center if you do the orange / grey wire hookup as your vacuum motor would appear to be just another loco motor to the command center.  So I guess my whole point is you (or I) really don't need to tweak the speed tables as using the throttle allows me to modulate my vacuum motor speed.

 

Mine has been in use - same decoder & same motor - for about four years, so no motor burnout issues.

 

I just have a Zephyr system so maybe you are using something different and I am unfamiliar with it.

[inobu]

mbloes,

 

Chances are I am a very different modeler than you. I don't like fish tank layouts (Basic ovals). I like operations that are realistic in nature. Therefore I uses speed tables and such.

 

You may be ok with a simple on off setup but chances are you have not considered the CFM that that fan can move. It is the air flow that draws the dust into the container. That tiny fan and its little port can only move so much air (air that will carry the dust).

 

There is a thought process that one has to use.

 

Just because the container is empty after you make your pass does not mean that the area is clean. It could mean that the fan just was not able to pick anything up.

 

As I stated before I don't think these cars can pick "Dirt" but it can pick up dust or puzz as Jeff refer it. How much you pick up is based on how efficient the fan is creating the vacuum suction.

 

I will give you another example of thought process.

 

I keep getting fine cloudy particles of dust after thinking about it I realize it was lint. Where was the lint coming from. The dryers hose was not on tight and the lint was eventually floating onto the track.

 

This though process is what lead me to my current position. Eliminate the source of the dirt more so trying to finds ways to clean up after it.

 

Mbloes if you don't want to use speed tables that is up to you but trying to negate the principles behind using the speed table does not make sense.

 

Inobu

 

Webskipper. There is not a set speed. You need to find what works best in picking up the stuff on your track. The sediment on your track is based on the environment that your layout is in.

 

Because "It never rains in Southern California" there sure is a lot of dust and dirt floating around in the air.  

[inobu]

Mbloes,

 

I think I can sum up the differences here.

 

You are saying point and shoot and I am saying point, aim and shoot via the speed tables.

 

Inobu

[KenS]

I think the point here, if I can summarize both of you, is that if you know a speed that works, you can put it in a speed table and never worry again (one speed at all settings). But if you want to be able to run the vacuum at different strengths, then giving the car a different address from the loco, and using a throttle to adjust vacuum speed independent of train speed makes more sense.  I would, however, set Vmax in that case, to ensure that even at an accidental high throttle you don't overdrive the motor. That safety net against human error is one big advantage of a speed table over just using the throttle.

 

I think one advantage of the "variable speed via throttle" approach is that if you take the car to a club or modular layout with a different track voltage (e.g., a club with a real 12V system as opposed to a simpler home system that could be 14 or 15V) you can adjust motor speed to compensate.  A speed table just sets percentage of track voltage to use, so the actual speed will change if the voltage changes, and you can't adjust without re-doing the speed table.

 

I have two of these cars, and plan to convert them to DCC although probably not soon, so I'm very interested in this thread and the discussions here. I think I'd take the "throttle" approach, but perhaps not.  Both are good ideas for me to think about.

[Guest Closed Account 1]

Because "It never rains in Southern California" there sure is a lot of dust and dirt floating around in the air.  

Hardly rains in the Sonoran Desert.

[mbloes]

For those that are interested, here are a couple of photos of my installation.  The decoder is a dz123:

 

 

[inobu]

I chuckle to myself as many may not think as I do and wonder about my comments but here is a test you can perform to see for yourself the limitations that this component has. The theoretical design verses and engineered design. This is all theoretical with very little engineering.  

 

Take the container screen and blow into it. This test will show you how under engineer this piece is.

 

As you blow into the screened portion of the container it you will feel the air bouncing back onto your lips. This happens because the screen is blocking the flow of air. As the air fills the inside of the screen casing its' back flow can be felt by your lips.

 

As you reduce the amount of air blown into the casing you will slowly eliminate the blow back. No blow back means that the air flow is steady exiting the container through the screen. This is the optimum air flow threshold.    

 

This is just one of two issues created by inconsistent air flow.

 

The second issue is called surge limits. Surge limits will stall air flow. If the fan spins too fast it will create a cushion of air that will block air flow. The air will just whip around under the fan and never drawing the dust into the container.

 

So you may do what ever way you see fit but there is only one way to dial in this little "vacuum".  

 

Inobu

 

If any of you ever vacuumed the floor remember you have to make multiple pass because you are moving the suction head too fast. When you want to suck something up you turn up the speed and slow down your movement.

 

Which means you need to slow down the engine and dial in the cleaners fan motor.

 

stepping off the soap box. 

[inobu]

Mbloes install is pretty much the install.

 

but note that he isolated/scratched out the trace lead near the orange wire connection. This isolates the track power from the DC power. It was so small I almost did not see it. (Good job)

 

Inobu 

[bc6]

mbloes where do the Blue, Yellow and White wires go?

[inobu]

BC6

 

You don't use them.

 

Notice in the top image he clipped the wires off.

 

 

 

Inobu

[Guest Closed Account 1]

Well, You could use the lighting wires to power a LED.

 

My Digitalzentrale decoder board came with a LED and it replaces the selector knob.

 

I used a TCS EUN651 decoder with the board.

 

CV46 & 50= 39 Rotary Beacon

CV5 6= 7 Volts for 50% motor speed

Edited April 3, 2013 by Webskipper

[bc6]

Thanks inobu and webskipper, which color wires are for lighting?

[Guest Closed Account 1]

White and Yellow are for lights.

 

Red and Black for track power.

 

Orange and Grey for motor.

[Guest Closed Account 1]

Found some UK overlays for this Track Cleaner. Maybe they will make a Dr. Yellow overlay.

 

electrarailwaygraphics.co.uk

[Vato]

Hi 

somebody knows how to order NGDCC decoders? 

[Ochanomizu]

Hello Mr vatato,

 

Please allow me to assist you with your NGDCC order.  Firstly, let me say that I am not involved with the company at all, but I have 3x decoder for track cleaning car, which work fine with Digitrax equipment.

 

You can email them your order in English.  The email address is order@snjpn.com  You need to include the following informaitions:

 

1. Name

2. Email

3. Delivery Address

4. Product Name and Quantity

5. Proposed Method of Payment

6. The brand of DCC you are using

7. The Main Scale or Gauge

 

The product name for track cleaning car is NGDCC DF4.6tcl.  They are currently ¥2600 each.  If you buy 2 or 3 you get 10% discount.  If you buy 4 or more you get 20% discount.  Shipping will be the same regardless of quantity as packaging will make up around 90% of the weight.

 

You can pay by bank transfer or credit card (Visa and MasterCard only).  You will need to provide your credit card details via email. 

[Vato]

Hello Mr vatato,

 

Please allow me to assist you with your NGDCC order.  Firstly, let me say that I am not involved with the company at all, but I have 3x decoder for track cleaning car, which work fine with Digitrax equipment.

 

You can email them your order in English.  The email address is order@snjpn.com  You need to include the following informaitions:

 

1. Name

2. Email

3. Delivery Address

4. Product Name and Quantity

5. Proposed Method of Payment

6. The brand of DCC you are using

7. The Main Scale or Gauge

 

The product name for track cleaning car is NGDCC DF4.6tcl.  They are currently ¥2600 each.  If you buy 2 or 3 you get 10% discount.  If you buy 4 or more you get 20% discount.  Shipping will be the same regardless of quantity as packaging will make up around 90% of the weight.

 

You can pay by bank transfer or credit card (Visa and MasterCard only).  You will need to provide your credit card details via email. 

Thanks Mr Ochanomizu

 

Which decoders do you have?