Forum updates

[Martijn Meerts]

It's been talked about many times before, but with more people seemingly getting problems with bugs in the current system, we're once again looking at switching to a more modern and easier to use forum software. We've been looking at a variety of systems, and have been getting some input from several of you. There are some things we need to consider, such as the ability to convert the current content to the new system, as well as making sure we don't lose too many features.

 

Initially we'd been looking at mostly free software, but out attempts to convert the current content to a new system has left us frustrated (so much so that we've been delaying switching to new software again and again). In a recent post about yet another bug in the system, The Ghan mentioned Invision Proboard as an option. I've looked at a demo a bit (and Don will be checking it out as well) and both from a user, moderator and admin perspective it's looking very promising. It's not free software, it's in fact not actually cheap, but we do feel it's worth the price, considering it won't only make it easier on us as admins/moderators, but it'll also benefit you lot.

 

Even though it is a commercial system, there will only be an initial cost, which the admins will take care of, and a slight increase in recurring monthly cost. This increase would be around $5 to $10 USD per month, not really something we can't handle either. We're still determined to not add any advertising, and there won't be any additional donation drives other than the ones we've been having.

 

 

The new system will add a couple of things some of you have been asking for, such as the ability to add tags to topics and make it easy to find related topics, social media integration (including sharing topics and using facebook/twitter sign in etc.), much better RSS feeds, multi quoting, better unread posts handling, friendly URLs and much more. It also has a fully functional, and very decent looking mobile version of the site, as well as a dedicate iOS app with an Android version in the works.

 

There are also some features that will (initially) be removed, but those features aren't used much (blogs for example.) What we're uncertain of though, is the gallery. The gallery for Invision is a module that needs to be bought separately. Although we do have a gallery system now, it's not used much at all, hence we're not sure whether we should (initially at least) get the gallery module.

 

 

Considering the forum is really for you lot, we'd love to hear what you think about all of this. If you're curious about Invision, feel free to have a look at http://community.invisionpower.com/ (you should be able to see most of it without registering/logging in), which shows a feel featured install with the default UI. Also, have a look at the gallery and chat systems there, to see if that's something you'd like to have here. Also, feel free to suggest other systems/features we can/should look at. Obviously the look will change, I'll initially convert the current theme here to the new system, and then start adding new ones, also based on various Japanese trains' color schemes.

[cteno4]

JNS owners and mods,

 

thanks so much for keeping on top of keeping jns running so well. its been wonderful that you guys keep doing all the back end work in keeping things going and clean. its been a pretty smooth ride and the glitches pretty minor and out of your control most of the time i think! the bugs have not been things that have really hurt our discussions here, just minor inconveniences.

 

Im definitely for upgrading if it makes your lives happier and easier. happy to pop an extra donation in to help with up front cost as well.

 

Personally, i dont think adding features is all that necessary for the forum as its really all about the content here, not the bells and whistles and as it works now it does a great job and i cant see social networking or other aspects really adding huge amounts to what goes on here. i know its all the rage, but i have clients sinking huge amounts of time, effort and money into those features and few have been able to show any sort of real return other than being able to say they have it. while lots of features can make some happier it can also cause you real pains in the back end works for you as well as frustrate other users who are not as computer comfortable, so i dont see them as being an overall benefit to this forum as much as it just being as stable and easy for you guys to keep running.

 

while the blogs and galleries were interesting features they have not really been utilized at all. blogs are nice for someone to try to document a project, but they never seemed to really take off and only work if someone keeps at it at a regular pace to keep interest. its a feature that if someone is really into doing there are lots of options out there for them to use. I dont see the galleries all that necessary for the forum as we dont really utilize them much as is. most folks keep their photos in the thread where its directly viewable along with the discussion. image galleries are better with more evergreen reference materials than with discussions.

 

i see the forum has really been more about discussion than documentation as its evolved out. i know the efforts to get the wiki and blogs going to be more ever green content just didnt pan out. I can see why as its probably the number one bug/pain/problem in my business -- CONTENT -- creating good content takes a lot of time, skill, and knowledge in the subject. trying to get someone to do all these is very tough and assembling teams to do it harder and costlier. While i would love to see more evergreen content on japanese train modeling happen, it appears that thru the forum its just not happening, so i see these features for doing more reference content as not being a primary need for the forum.

 

So im happy with the concept of upgrading the forum software with the primary focus on these things in this priority:

 

1. making it easier for you guys to manage

2. keeping the main discussion features of the forum stable and easy to use and view by all levels of computer users

3. Long term growth stability - making sure as the forum ages it stays stable with the ever growing pile of threads and posts

4. affordable - a level that is sustainable w/in our donation level w/o ads and membership

5. mobile friendly since the world seems to be going more this way...

6. search engine friendly

7. unread post handling

 

secondary and not really have to have features IMHO (in priority of potential usefulness to the forum). most of these could be done with a separate system if needed and just cross link them as needed rather than trying to have it all rolled into one.

 

1. wiki

2. image galleries

3. rss

4. blogs

 

not worth bothering with

 

1. social media (he we are being social in here, who needs f$%^book and twitass!)

 

my 2Yens worth and thanks again to all you guys keeping this all going!

 

jeff

[CaptOblivious]

I'm thinking that when we do the switchover, the wiki needs to come down permanently. It was a fun experiment, but in the end, I don't think anyone has so much as looked at it in the past year or two.

 

Finding content on this site, being as Jeff notes, discussion driven, is really important to me. Right now, in this system, it can be frustratingly difficult to find an old thread on a particular subject. Just today, I was trying to search for the thread about using the Peco turnout levers with Tomix turnouts, and even though it was a recent post, it was halfway down the search results page. Tags should help with that, and hopefully some of the other enhancements will improve upon the situation as well.

 

Too, going with commercial software, I'm hopeful that we will get good support when issues arise (those who have tried to get answers to SMF problems will sympathize).

 

Plus, in the end, SMF is a real resource hog in a lot of ways. This isn't something that most anyone will ever notice here, but I'm sure many have experienced the random, unannounced, brief downtime every few days. I'm fairly certain SMF is to blame for that (resource overutilization is the ultimate cause).

 

So, I'm for it personally.

[Densha]

I haven't found any bugs except the quote bug though and I'm not discontented with how it's at the moment either actually.

But if you're going to start over again I think I'll add a bit to what CaptOblivious said: the wiki (seriously didn't know we had one) is an example on unused and extra useless things. I like simplified layouts that make clear where to get your stuff, but at the same time have the possibility to be more advanced when needed. The thing that comes in mind first is the "Additional Options" menu on the reply page of course. Also just like the wiki, I don't really see the blog section being used much and it is confusing, and the gallery is kinda confusing too. Why have a blog section when you can post your layout advances in the forum?

[Martijn Meerts]

One issue with the wiki is that it didn't run very well initially, it kept crashing the server and performance of the forum itself was suffering as well. Personally, I don't like the wiki system in general with all the weird meta code for creating links and references etc. I know a lot of people love using a wiki, I'm just not one of them :)

 

 

Jeff, the only advantage I can see with the social media, is that some people on the forum use for example Facebook. They might make a post here, and then share it on Facebook. Others will see it, and might visit and sign up for the forum. It also looks to be really easy to install (just flip a switch really), so there's not much reason not to give it a try.

[cteno4]

sure if its easy and no cost or no headaches. Ive still not heard us get much here from facebook and i keep drilling my clients and friends also have the same situation with clients where there is little of actual "value" they can point to. it just becomes the number of looks and likes that they can tout usually. most of the talk is of keeping up with the competition, but if little value what are they competing for?

 

anyhow, my main point here is the vast strength and importance of jns has been discussion on these topics in a nice environment and thats what i would focus 99% of the attention on an upgrade on as its the thing to absolutely would do better under the new system both for the administrators and users. most all else is of not all that much value in comparison.

 

sorry if i sound brutal, but its an exercise i alway go through when working on this kind of project, really make sure you find the most important thing and nail that to the wall so you cant wander off of it. tech is especially prone to wander! that and my old monkier  "its the content, stupid!"

 

cheers

 

jeff

[Densha]

Jeff, the only advantage I can see with the social media, is that some people on the forum use for example Facebook. They might make a post here, and then share it on Facebook. Others will see it, and might visit and sign up for the forum. It also looks to be really easy to install (just flip a switch really), so there's not much reason not to give it a try.

There are a few sites where I use Twitter to automatically gather all my posts on my Twitter account. It works pretty nice, but haven't used my account for anything but that and one conversation a while ago.

I think social networks could be a great addition to get more attention on the net, but I think it's about that and no more.

[miyakoji]

Martijn, what free software have you evaluated and decided against?  Have you looked at SMF2?

[Martijn Meerts]

Jeff, obviously the ease of use of the forum itself is more important than the social stuff. I don't think the social stuff will be turned on initially either, but might be something to experiment with a little bit once the dust after the move has settled.It's absolutely true though that the majority of presences on Facebook are for the most part useless, and only really to 'show off' with likes.. (Of course, being a developer, and having worked with some of the social stuff, I know that in 99% of the cases those likes are actually bought ;))

 

 

Miyakoji, I looked at MyBB (which we initially wanted to start using), phpBB, punBB, bbPress, Burning Board, Vanilla, as well considered a completely custom system.

 

We're rather hesitant to go with SMF2 considering the absolute disaster that is SMF1 code and theming. Another problem is that, much like phpBB, SMF2 has you manually edit core system files when installing modules/add-ons, which is just awful design.

[miyakoji]

What about using a hosted service?  You would lose some control, but if you're thinking focusing on the forum/discussion and doing away with the wiki, etc, it might not be a bad idea.

[Dani]

Hello,

 

I'm very happy to see how this forum tries every day to get better and better. I'm really proud of the Administrators, Moderators and everybody writing and participating so if you find something better for most of the people, let's go for it! But let me add also my opinion:

 

- 100% agree, all contents must be portable

- In my case, I feel this forum really easy of use and agile. The quick access to "Show new replies to your posts", "Mark all as read", "Show all unread posts",.... is also a must for me and I see dozens of forums without this features. Search engine also works nice. We shouldn't loose those tools for a more "beautiful" forum. Practical before any other thing.

- All bugs derived from the navigator's type or version are impossible to avoid. Doesn't matter the system, some day will appear again. So it's better to choose a product with updates and portability assured for a long time than a product that today works in all systems.

- Social stuff is not something that I miss.

- About blogs or galleries, I prefer to keep it apart. Those things consume a lot of space, are hard to manage and I don't imagine something more practical than the existing products where you can upload, post and publish a photo directly in your blog and photo storage with one click in your smartphone.

- Wikis is something that could help to organize and make more accessible all the knowledge spread in threads and posts. But this could be done just installing a standard wiki and linking it, it's not a feature to search in the new software. Nice, there's a wiki!!!!! 

 

May be administrators can publish a list of "candidates" and make a pool.

 

Thanks a lot,

Dani.

[CaptOblivious]

Martijn and I spent rather quite a lot  of time about two years ago evaluating those several forum software right here on this server (i found one that's still up! http://test2.jnsforum.com/ for the curious). We'd install, attempt a full import of the live data, and then spend time with the tech support community. MyBB was the front runner until we began to uncover serious bugs in the import code that they refused to fix. We even wrote up a ton of python scripts to do a custom import before we gave up in frustration. At this point, there's not a whole lot to vote on, as we have outright rejected all of the options listed above. Especially SMF2. Martijn is working hard to evaluate this new commercial option, but ultimately its going to boil down to ease of import (and presence of a "unread posts" feature, surprisingly uncommon!)

 

I suppose the real question is: if we do find one we like, is it worthwhile to the audience to endure the pain of switching? I am presuming the answer is a slightly reserved yes, but we definately want your feedback on what would make that pain worthwhile.

[The_Ghan]

Guys,

 

Firstly, let me say that Admin on JNS is far more friendly and approachable than other boards I've been involved with, even those that I am/was a Moderator on.

 

As Martijn pointed out, there are bugs with SMF - just enable Quick Reply in your personal settings and try to use the Quote button besides messages to find one!  I've also attempted to get support from the SMF crew recently, but it is a well-tested fact that free software does come at a price - limited support.  So, I suggested IP.Board to Martijn.  I don't pretend that it's going to be the answer to all our prayers and I don't for a second think we will be using it in 10 years time.  Software evolves too quickly for either of those statements to be true.  Martijn provided a link to the IP.Board community.  There is more information on the product suite here at http://www.invisionpower.com/.

 

Generally, I agree with what most others have said regarding the gallery and blog - not required.  In fact, I prefer it that Quintopia, KenS, Tecchan, etc. have their own blogs using different providers.  I regularly visit: Akihabara Station, Quintopia, Sumida Crossing, Tecchan, and 3-4 others. 

 

There IS one feature I would like to see - chat.  I think it might be useful and I'm used to it on other forums.  Probably the 20 user version would suffice.  It's a handy way to say "hi" on line.  Also, I sometimes have "on-line chats" with keitaro, Martijn, and a few others, via thread replies or PM, which would be easer had in a chat.  The caveat is that the chat should be monitored and users need to remember that anything said at that moment which would benefit the community as a whole should be transferred to a thread.

 

Finally, I'd like to mention a few reasons why I suggested IP.Board to Martijn:

1. Used by some huge communities with proven reliability;

2. Yes, you pay for it but that's the cost of decent support;

3. It has a SMF converter, which I guess Martijn is testing ... right ... about ... now ...  ...;

4. It comes with great support forums;

5. I has a "skin generator";

6. There are heaps of free skins already out there;

7. It work on Linux, Unix, Windows and Mac;

8. Compatible with IE, Firefox, Safari, Chrome, SeaMonkey, and a few other browsers;

9. Works with Android, Apple, Blackberry, Windows Phone 7, Symbian and WebOS portable devices;

10. Supports unread threads, thread topic icons;

11. Quick Reply works properly.

 

There are other things too, but they're more to do with Admin and Mod features.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[Densha]

(i found one that's still up! http://test2.jnsforum.com/ for the curious).

Lol. I think I could even make an account there, makes no sense though. I assume you're planning on taking it down?

 

While browsing it though I came to the conclusion that if we're going with new forum software, all links to the forum from external websites, but also links from topic to topic in the forum will get broken.

 

Generally, I agree with what most others have said regarding the gallery and blog - not required.  In fact, I prefer it that Quintopia, KenS, Tecchan, etc. have their own blogs using different providers.  I regularly visit: Akihabara Station, Quintopia, Sumida Crossing, Tecchan, and 3-4 others. 

Agreed, and maybe having a better links page and RSS feed section for members could make it much easier to access the blogs and sites.

[The_Ghan]

BTW, the "Platform #" labels seem to have shrunk to a font size suitable for ants!

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[Martijn Meerts]

Ghan, without users there's no reason for a forum, and there's no better way of losing users than have rude, unapproachable elitist admins ;)

 

I have been testing the conversion from SMF to IPB, and while not perfect, it's doing the best job of the ones we've tried so far. With a few additional custom scripts, we should be able to move everything to a new system. Of course, it's not going to 100%, and there's bound to be something that goes wrong..

 

 

Densha, we're still checking if the IPB converters have an option to scan all posts and update the internal links. If needed we can write a custom script for it, it's fairly straightforward. We're also looking at a way of making sure that search results and links on external site will be automatically redirected to the new links. Again, it's very doable, it'll just require a little trial and error.

 

 

Also, thanks for all the kind words, and not running out on us when for some reason the site is down for a little while. And while we do keep the site running from a purely hardware/software point of view, it's the many discussions, great pictures and great articles that really make the forum what it is :)

[Martijn Meerts]

Little update ..

 

I made a backup of the entire forum yesterday, and just finished running a test conversion of that backup into a local Invision install. I don't have the latest version running, so some of the problems I've encountered might be fixed in newer versions.

 

The conversion went really smooth and reasonably fast (about 3 hours give or take). The way permissions are done between the 2 systems is different, so converting those didn't go well, but we'll be redoing the permissions anyway. Converting users went well with the exception of the user avatars/images. This is an issue Don came across with the conversion to MyBB as well though, and is an easy fix.

 

Importing forums, topics, posts, PMs etc. went without a hitch as well. A few PMs didn't get imported, but that was maybe 10 out of almost 5000 PMs. Attachments also had a couple of errors, but again, only around 60 out of a total of about 16000 records. It actually also imported the amount of times attached pictures were viewed, which is quite nice. There are some issues with html code in posts, as well as embedded flash, but those are minor and probably need to be updated manually eventually.

 

It didn't import the likes, but again, that makes sense. The like system is a plugin for SMF, and you can't really expect there to be a converter for all the hundreds of plugins. I do believe it's fairly straightforward to write a quick script to import them however.

 

 

There are a few systems in Invision we'll likely once again turn off. Things like reputation/number of likes/dislikes, post count etc. because they do promote competition, which isn't something we're looking forward to. My local version is showing post counts, and I have to say, some of us really can't be very productive at work =)

 

At this point I'm very positive about the conversion going well.

[JR 500系]

Thank you Martijn for the hard work! Cheers!

[Lawrence]

Martijn, we upgraded to SMF2.0.2 with little problem and it has proved to be robust (we do also have a tame SMF tech that we can call on  ), please feel free to have a look  http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php

[Guest ___]

I agree with ya Don on the wiki. I've spent a lot of time on the wiki when we started it, and just got flustered with it. The same goes for the Hipstamatic wiki that I was doing. (Dif there is that wiki is constantly vandalized becasue Synthetic won't lock it down) My conclusion after several years and several wiki's is that they are waste of time and resource and the amount of time that goes in to them is seldom what comes out of it, so I'm fine with scrapping it.

 

Since, I've been on an IP rights thing lately and really restricting posting anything to photo galleries, I could care less about them. I'm just as apathetic towards the blogs as well.

[Martijn Meerts]

Lawrence, it's not that SMF is a bad system, and 2.0 has probably improved things a lot, but making new templates really was a pain (unless you grabbed a default one and just changed a couple of colors around :)) That's why we currently have a theme that's mostly grey, but with some blue bits left over :)

 

 

As for the wiki, gallery, blogs etc. We can always add features when there's a need for them. We will of course be backing up the current system, so all the pictures in the current gallery could be imported into a new one at a later time.

[domino]

Please guy`s , dont make the new JNS to complicated ,keep it user friendly.

 

There is one model train forum here in Denmark that changed server,software ect , and because if the very complicated new look and features that nobody understod it lost 50 % of its members within 6 month.

 

I believe that the new system was called Drupal ??

 

 

Brian

[cteno4]

drupal is pretty powerful, but with that folks can go overboard with the features and making it work well can be huge as well. you really need a good offline server to do drupal development well.

 

jeff

[The_Ghan]

domino,

 

Dont worry, the sky is not falling!!!

 

Here is the old forum:

 

 

... and replacing it with one of these:

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[domino]

  Great

 

Brian