DE10 = DEAD

[cteno4]

Thanks - I'll have a go at pulling the brushes out. My motor only seems to run in one direction and then very roughly, with a lot of vibration. I've reassembled the loco without the motor for now to avoid losing any parts.

 

An alternative: Have you seen the 8513 Kani 24-0 baggage van? This has a motor installed, and would have no trouble with propelling the loco and a passenger train.

 

hmm working in one direction definitely sounds like a binding issue! a couple of things

 

a) on the de10 the little end caps for the spring drive chain are identical, but i found that there is definitely a right order and wrong order! i think the insides have gotten worn differentially. anyway in one orientation runs much better than the other. took me a few disassemblies/assemblies to figure that one out! one now has a mark on it along with the chassis!

 

b) when you shoved the brush cylinders in you may have pushed too far and they are too tight and a brush edge is catching on a rotor pickup now. also the brush end may have gotten jammed at an angle or turned some (the end is has a concave part that fits around the rotor brushes) and its rubbing too much. most brushes sort of self seat, but some can get cranky.

 

the DE10 has been frustrating as i have got it running well a couple of time only to have aaron take it home and after a few laps it starts acting up again! next time im going to run the hell out of it before i give it back to him! sounds like the ef64 has the same crankyness!

 

im looking forward to experimenting with some more drastic motor cleaning methods i have been told about and trying out my new ultra sonic cleaner on aarons old motor to see what it can do as well. its such an odd problem and mechanism it would be nice to come to some conclusions or it may be like most PC fixes where it works and you are not quite sure what you did to fix it but are scared to poke around or ask questions or it will break again!

 

best of luck

 

cheers,

 

jeff

[Welshbloke]

The motor was doing this while removed from the chassis - it would barely turn when fitted, so I was hoping to get it running reliably on the bench and then reinstall it. I can't get the brush holders out at all, trying to lever them just mangles the plastic housing. I'm not seeing any signs of life now, it's not even trying to spin.

 

Does the 0604 motor come with new drive springs installed or do I have to work out how to remove the originals? I think for 900 Yen it's a case of ordering a new one.

[cteno4]

we will have to get aaron to answer the drive spring question, he has gotten the motor, but we have not been able to do the handoff so i have not seen it yet. i hope it does as those springs dont look like they want to come off easily! sort of chinese fingercuffs! when we were poking around for the motor sourcing it i do remember one site having a picture and it was sans springs...

 

interesting to note the hw description includes: For The locomotive of the spring warm method

 

i like the spring warm method translation! wonder if they mean spring worm drive?

 

only rub on the 900yen motor is i think the min ems shipping charge is like 1500y to europe...

 

cheers,

 

jeff

[CaptOblivious]

My guess is you'll have to install new spring drives, but I can't find the kind needed for the DE10 in HS. Here is the set for the EF64:

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10085911

 

And here are some other ones that look too short for the DE10:

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10064169

[cteno4]

good find captain! good to know they are there if there is a problem getting the old ones off! at 90y better to just replace as long as its with another order! i will be interesting to see how hard/easy these are to get on and off. did not want to fiddle with that until aaron had sources his new motor. now its play time with it all!

 

once we determine which it is im going to pick up a set if i can as i have 2 tomix de10s. both new and run great, but hey...

 

i think the de10 has a long and a short one. been a couple of months since i last tore into aarons! maybe it uses one of each! the 37mm does not seem too long from my memory of it though!

 

jeff

[Welshbloke]

Yep, I know they usually charge about 2000 Yen to post orders (not so bad if you order a few things, but daft for a little motor).

 

Better news this morning. While trying to work out how to remove the brushes I noticed that there are holes in the top of the brush caps. Thinking that these might unscrew them I used a very small Torx screwdriver to rotate the caps. Nothing seemed to happen, so on a whim I tried hooking the motor up to a power supply again.

 

It ran perfectly! I think the brushes must have been slightly stuck or improperly oriented, turning the brush holders presumably scraped any gunge out and aligned the brushes properly. I reinstalled it in the loco which spun its wheels when I held a couple of wires to them, I've yet to track test it as I ran out of time, but it should work well after a good run.

 

I put a tiny drop of oil on the springs and motor bearings, which should help reduce friction. The axle gears have had a dab of grease, same as my EF81 300. Not bad for a £20 ebay find!

 

Edit, a photo of the EF64:

 

 

I have also ordered a spare motor and drive springs, as I was ordering a Twilight Express pack from HobbySearch the extra cost was not huge. If the original fails (no idea how many miles it has on it, the wheels and gears look little used though) I'll have a spare.

[cteno4]

Hey great news!

 

good to hear the brushes fiddling worked. i am now a bit suspicious of aaron's de10 brushes. want to pull them next time and really go over them well.

 

wonder how many motors they have in stock? still showing as available after your order! dont know how long hs system takes to reflect their stock status...

 

good to keep info flowing on these as its an odd problem that has really vexed me with aaron's de10, runs great, het gets it home and sputter stop...

 

cheers

 

jeff

[Welshbloke]

I'm not sure whether they have the motors or not to be honest - the photo shows "Now Printing" which I take to mean as the motors are currently being made or on the way. I asked them to just send what they have in stock, so will see what turns up. I won't know either way until I get the email to say they've dispatched the order.

 

I've still not got around to setting up a test oval, but it was happily trundling up and down a length of track when I perched a 9v battery on the rails as a quick and simple test procedure. It also looks as though it will be happy to double head with my EF81 300, the speeds seem fairly similar and the EF64 should improve further with an hour or so of running.

 

Prising the brush holders out looked to be impossible with mine, I did try but the screwdriver just seemed to damage the plastic rather than moving the holder.

[CaptOblivious]

I'm not sure whether they have the motors or not to be honest - the photo shows "Now Printing" which I take to mean as the motors are currently being made or on the way. I asked them to just send what they have in stock, so will see what turns up. I won't know either way until I get the email to say they've dispatched the order.

 

 

Oh! That's just the image they use when they don't have a photo of the product. It means nothing, really! If it's in stock, you will see a "add to cart" button (or the like).

[Welshbloke]

Ah ok - I thought it was Engrish for "In production, delivery soon"!

[Guest ___]

the DE10 has been frustrating as i have got it running well a couple of time only to have aaron take it home and after a few laps it starts acting up again! next time im going to run the hell out of it before i give it back to him! sounds like the ef64 has the same crankyness!

 

Poor Growly, he's so angry at the world. In retrospect I'd've been better off spending the extra twenty bucks and bought a new Kato release. The irony is that I won the DE10 on a second chance auction.

[CaptOblivious]

the DE10 has been frustrating as i have got it running well a couple of time only to have aaron take it home and after a few laps it starts acting up again! next time im going to run the hell out of it before i give it back to him! sounds like the ef64 has the same crankyness!

 

Poor Growly, he's so angry at the world. In retrospect I'd've been better off spending the extra twenty bucks and bought a new Kato release. The irony is that I won the DE10 on a second chance auction.

 

I think the irony is that I bid on it too…if you'd turned it down, I'd have it! And I don't want it (now)!

[cteno4]

I should not sound too grumpy about aaron's de10, its become a challenge to figure out what the heck is going on with it. i like a puzzle like that and like when i know what i did to make things work or not (why im a mac head i guess).

 

growly will be happy and may have to loose that nickname if he really does get going well!

 

at least his old motor can serve as a testing grounds for more dramatic cleaning attempts and help me learn some new tricks!

 

jeff

[Welshbloke]

It sounds like exactly the same problems as mine is having. Sometimes turning the controller up all the way just produces a cruising speed, sometimes it refuses to move without a bit of a nudge. I've also had it progressively slowing despite the controller setting remaining unchanged.

 

It does seem to be improving with several hours running and copious spraying of cleaning fluid into the motor brushes. At the moment it's cruising around at a low power setting and a steady speed. I did try putting the motor through the ultrasonic cleaner, but it seemed to make very little difference. Spraying screen cleaner into it and tweaking the brush caps with a Torx screwdriver seems to do a lot more.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fo_TASLrLCY a brief runby - picture quality is not great as I used my PSP camera. That's a Tomix EF81 300 on the siding next to the running line, awaiting a good workout when the EF64 1000 is healthy.

[cteno4]

Thanks ill take a closer look at the brushes and see if thats his problem also!

 

the whole spring drive seems a bit of a dumb one. i think that the friction in it just makes having additional problems like the brushes amplified.

 

what did you use for a cleaner in the ultrasonic bath? i have been trying to research good cleaners for train motors and parts in the ultrasonic bath.

 

im still a bit confused as to what is in the stuff you are calling screen cleaner that you use on the contacts. screen (computer) cleaners i have generally seen are only water and a tad of non ionic detergent in them to clean off snot from screens and are just squirted on. contact cleaners im familiar with for motors, relays and electronics are aerosol applied (to blast stuff out some and get into everything well) usually a mix of alcohols and other organics that help break up greasy buildups then evaporate quickly. some are save with plastics others are not...

 

cheers,

 

jeff

[Welshbloke]

I just used normal washing up liquid and water, then rinsed the motor under the tap to remove it all. Remember to re-oil the bearings after.

 

The screen cleaner I use isn't particularly helpful in its ingredients list - it just says "water, alcohols, scents". I think it's the same stuff that spectacles cleaning wipes are soaked in judging by the smell. It is very mild indeed, certainly not switch/contact cleaner.

 

The EF64 is still having occasional grumpy moments, but springs into life when you flick the armature with a bit of plastic or sometimes if you just rock it back and forth on the track. It's definitely improving, so I'm leaving it running for most of today at varying speeds and directions in the hope that this will get it settled. It doesn't seem to be down on power as it handled my Asakaze (the only decent length passenger train I have at five coaches) without fuss.

 

I've still not had a dispatch email from Hobbysearch, or indeed any communication. What worries me is that I'm not sure whether my Visa Debit card will be accepted - the funds are there, but I'm not sure if it's interchangeable with Visa credit cards where retailers are concerned.

 

Edit, I've been having more fun with this and it now seems to be behaving. I took a rather dramatic approach of driving the loco flat out along straights (it would fall over on curves at the same speed, so back off!). This seemed to sort the motor out, as it's now behaving perfectly well. A couple of Youtube videos:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzzMsnEmYvg

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3I1HGGMcO9U

[cteno4]

Welshbloke,

 

thanks, interesting to hear what folks use with the ultrasonic bath. joy dish soap may be the best detergent as i have lots of boat friends that swear by it for cleaning all sorts of grease and engine muck out of engines. from what i gather most of the concentrates you can buy for ultrasonic cleaners are not much different!

 

my current plan for aarons old motor (if he lets me) is first a good spray out/soaking with plastic compatible contact cleaner, followed by a couple of ultrasonic soap and water baths, then maybe an isopropanol ultra to purge all the water.

 

i am also really wondering if there are some small bits of metallic grit between the magnet and the armature. in looking in there it looks like there may be something in there on aarons.

 

if it is cranky brushes then your long runs may have helped reshape the brushes to make them not bind up anymore.

 

glad your ef64 is purring along!

 

cheers

 

jeff

[Welshbloke]

It's dead again, sad to say. However, the new motor is on the way so I shouldn't have to wait too long. I think mine was suffering from the brush springs being too weak, but as I couldn't get the brush holders out there was no way of fixing this by gently stretching them.

 

One snag: I did try to order new drive springs, but they were out of stock. So now I have to attempt to remove the old ones! Any ideas? I'm thinking that applying pliers to the shaft between the motor and the spring and then sliding them along in an attempt to pull the spring off may help?

 

I was most impressed with Hobbysearch - I'd heard that they don't respond to emails, well, they responded to mine! I sent one to chase the order as I'd heard nothing, and was told that as they didn't have the Twilight express base pack or the springs they wanted to check whether I still wanted the other items. I said yes, as the Sushi 24 will be worth owning anyway and I kind of need that motor!

[Guest ___]

It's dead again, sad to say. However, the new motor is on the way so I shouldn't have to wait too long. I think mine was suffering from the brush springs being too weak, but as I couldn't get the brush holders out there was no way of fixing this by gently stretching them.

 

One snag: I did try to order new drive springs, but they were out of stock. So now I have to attempt to remove the old ones! Any ideas? I'm thinking that applying pliers to the shaft between the motor and the spring and then sliding them along in an attempt to pull the spring off may help?

 

I was most impressed with Hobbysearch - I'd heard that they don't respond to emails, well, they responded to mine! I sent one to chase the order as I'd heard nothing, and was told that as they didn't have the Twilight express base pack or the springs they wanted to check whether I still wanted the other items. I said yes, as the Sushi 24 will be worth owning anyway and I kind of need that motor!

 

HS has been quite good at responding to my emails with them over the past year. I will admit I recall they couldn't get me the TOMIX M-4 Motor, but HobbyLink did mange to get them in after I already received one alpine managed to find for me.

[CaptOblivious]

HS has been outstanding in replying to my emails. You'll notice in this morning's HS newsletter, pantographs for the Kato E231-500 are now listed as available…because I asked for them about a month ago! They were great in working with me to secure the part.

[cteno4]

Welshbloke,

 

bummer. on aaron's the brush cans just pulled straight out with a tad of prying with a screw driver. the brush cans were basically like gun shells with a small lip around the end to pry under. didnt notice that aarons springs were weak, but thats something ill check out if i can experiment with his old motor some.

 

would be nice to figure out whats mucking these m-4 motors up...

 

cheers,

 

jeff

[Guest ___]

Welshbloke,

 

bummer. on aaron's the brush cans just pulled straight out with a tad of prying with a screw driver. the brush cans were basically like gun shells with a small lip around the end to pry under. didnt notice that aarons springs were weak, but thats something ill check out if i can experiment with his old motor some.

 

would be nice to figure out whats mucking these m-4 motors up...

 

cheers,

jeff

 

Gypsy curse, I suspect.

[Welshbloke]

My brush holders look the same, but there seems to be something stopping them from pulling out easily. I tried a screwdriver but it just squashed the plastic around the holder rather than moving it.

 

I would wonder if there was a bad batch of these motors? Still working out how to get the drive springs off!

[cteno4]

hugh, aaron's almost lifted out too easily. my first thought was that they were not seated in well enough and the brushes were causing the problem. i squeezed them in a tad more and they seemed to stay there. this could still be a problems though as the train will work fine then stop working, so maybe it wiggles out some with running. the spring drive train creates a lot of friction and vibration so i would not be surprised its a cranky beastie.

 

cheers,

 

jeff

[Welshbloke]

New motor arrived today, just installed and all seems well, albeit with only four wheel drive.

 

The drive springs are tricky to remove without damaging them. One of mine broke, hence the loco only having four driven wheels now. This doesn't seem to bother it unduly.

 

The best technique I found (which recovered the second spring intact) is to use a small screwdriver to gently lever between the motor body and the spring, tight against the shaft.

 

Installing the spring on the new motor was very simple, they go on easily if you turn them as though screwing them on. Reassembled, a brief test with a 9v battery showed plenty of life. I'll get the track and controller set up at the weekend and see how it performs. I'll be keeping an eye on Hobbysearch for some new springs anyway, and may well get another spare motor just in case. However, I don't plan to order either on their own due to the postage fees involved!