DE10 = DEAD

[Guest ___]

Yeah, I'm fine with that, Jeff.  However, I still think it's not going to be a bad idea to have a spare motor on hand. Just going from how difficult it has been to try and get this part, having a spare on hand I think is a good idea regardless as to whether it will run or not.

 

I tried to run it again today, and you could faintly hear electrical hum from her for about five seconds.

[cteno4]

ok its great practice to learn what may work on problems like this and never know may finally get it to work. one of those things that will probably just take some fiddling to work.

 

worth getting a new motor if you can as long as it doesnt cost you as much as a new unit! wire transfers sometimes can be horribly expensive.

 

cheers,

 

jeff

[alpineaustralia]

Hobby search has one wait listed , see:

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10084015

 

In the meantime, I have made enquiries directly with the store in japan that sourced a replacement motor for my Kato E3 shinkansen that had a dodgey motor. 

[Guest ___]

Yeah, HobbySrach added that page at my request while they were researching as to whether or not that they can get it from TOMIX. I got the email a few days later saying according to TOMIX the motor is discontinued. To me this was strange because TOMIX own web page updated Feb.2 shows that the motor is still available. However, HWJ, and Rainbow 10 have stated they were told by TOMIX that the motor is unavailable.

[CaptOblivious]

Shashinka, if it makes you feel at all any better, I finally just finished installing a decoder into my DE10. Recall that I fried the last one :D This time, the fit is a little tighter than before, so the shell bulges barely perceptably. I dislike that fact. Also, I managed somehow to wire the motor and headlights in reverse of each other, so it only lights where its been, not where its going. And, man does it growl. Needs lube, I'm sure, but I'm not crossing my fingers on that sound ever going away. Also, I am never ever going to crack this thing open again: Imagine your DE10, but with very very short wires wires going every which way, which all explode out of their carefully prepared locations when you lift the shell off…

 

Anyway, I thought this thread need a little uplifting Tomix DE10 news :D

[alpineaustralia]

I have an atlas loco that also growls and I worked it is was actually the flywheel rubbing up against the sides of the loco.

I dremeled the sides a little and it lessened the sound considerably. Could that be a problem withe the DE10?

[cteno4]

no flywheel in this model. its just the motor and the spring drive train (drive shaft and worm gear). growl does seem to come from the spring drive shaft wanting to fly out like a propeller when it gets torque applied and the ends thus rub a lot in the two end cap sections that hold the end of the drive trains. the whole drive train is very touchy to how it sits in the chasis.

 

its a strange setup.

 

odd thing was i was able to make it a lot quieter with a good cleaning. the motor on aarons has never run with as much power as my new one (even out of the chasis) so it wasnt the motor that got quieter. then to have it work flawlessly here and die when aaron got it home is even stranger. its obviously bound up in the drive chain again.

 

i cleaned my new one out and lubed it and it growled just the same as it did out of the box.

 

its an odd one.

 

jeff

[C62]

Having read this thread and commients on other forum and websites I come to think that

I should not buy the Tomix DE10. Better buy the MicroAce or the Kato one. I usually would order the MicroAce one but are tempted to try the new Kato model.

Thomas

[alpineaustralia]

I think my view on Tomix motors are well documented

[alpineaustralia]

Shashinka

I have successfully sourced for you a TOMIX 0604　M-4 Motor (5 Poles) in Japan for 945 yen + postage from Australia to the US.

I do not know whether the worm drive comes with the motor or whether it is only the motor. Does this matter to you?

It will form part of another order which will be sent to Australia first and from there I can send it to you.

I apologise for the inconvenience of doing that but I am not sure how else I can do it.

Can you please confirm that you really want the motor before I order it?

 

Cheers mate

Alpineaustralia

[Guest ___]

Hey Alpine, I replied to the PM. Having seen the insides of Growly, and knowing that the new KIHA40 is using the three pole version with the same drive setup, I canned my order from HobbySearch for the KIHA40 and will try to acquire a Kato or MicroAce version. After talking offline with a few other people who have emailed me via the lists, this problem I'm having with the DE10 seems to be relatively common problem. No one was completely sure whether the issue resides with the drive springs itself or how they transfer power the gears.

 

Bryan said that for whatever reason if there is more resistance on the gears than torque the motor is able to produce that it will bind the gears. I'm not entirely sure I understand that or not, but I would think this would hold true for any model. He went on to say the M3 would not produce enough torque to run the train.

[cteno4]

the conclusion i have come to is its both. the combination of the friction the end of the spring drive chain has in the end caps and the expanded spring worm gear, there is a lot of friction, thus needs a lot of torque and any little obstrction, that a normal system could get past, just binds this sucker up. aarons motor has some issues as its about half power of a new motor, either just an old version of the motor (i doubt thats it) or just wear and/or the ac it also got for a while.

 

The spring drive shaft can obviously bend. thus when spinning the centrifugal acceleration wants to make the ends propeller out and rub in the end caps. the contact area for this friction is pretty big and not great surfaces to grind against each other with the metal uneven spring surface against plastic. not a great bearing system!

 

the expanded end of the drive shaft spring to make a worm gear is also not a great worm gear. while its the same shape its not a perfect worm gear to engage the top truck gear. again lots of resistance here so any little flitz in the system and it will bind.

 

The spring drive shaft also means you dont have the wiggle room of where the truck gears engage or the position of the motor as any change in these will result in a lot more resistance and thus bind.

 

the 3 pole may have the torque, but im just not sure if it will sit in the chassis perfectly to allow the drive train to work. if there are any differences in the motor housing or alignment it wont work.

 

on my new tomix de10s they have no problems, the do make noise, but have gobs of power that must be plenty to overcome the resistance problems. hopefully in the future grit and age wont kill them...

 

hopefully a replacement motor in aaron's will fix it! still hoping we can play with aaron's old motor to see if we can find out why its running at half power. i pulled the brushes and cleaned them, but that just made it run smoother with no power increase. only other thing i could think is that some small metalic bits have gotten sucked into the inside of the magnets between them in the rotors. this can screw up a motor's performance.

 

would be great if the motor came with the drive shafts attached, but i doubt they do. another problem with the spring drive shaft is i expect they will not be easy to get off the drive shafts, the old chinese finger cuffs problem! we shall see!

 

jeff

[CaptOblivious]

Well, crap. My DE10 w/ Digitrax DZ125 had been working pretty good. I just got some Aero-Car lubricants and greased that puppy up. Placing the bare frame on the tracks indicated that the lubrication did a hell of a lot to decrease noise. But once the shell was on, it caused a short. Pulled the decoder, and found that, completely removed from the loco, the red and black leads when directly applied to the track shorts it out. Grrrrrrrr…………

 

Ol' Growly is about to get decoder number 3…

[Guest ___]

I still need to get Growly down to Jeff, to get the new motor planted. I'm out of model train season.

[cteno4]

Doh! only been like the last three times we forgot about it!

 

Want to try and see if the old engine can get cleaned out with the ultrasonic cleaner as well!

 

Yell if you are in the area at all.

 

cheers,

 

jeff

[Guest ___]

I will, most of my time is spent in Baltimore with the J-club these days. Sigh, now only if I could find one of the J-chicks in the club that is single, and I'd be all set.

[Welshbloke]

One idea - try hooking up a multimeter between the controller and the track and checking the current draw of this loco compared to others. The lower speed part sounds like a motor fault, quite possibly a dirty commutator. Motor problems will often show as higher current draw.

 

I have a horrible suspicion that these motors are sealed, so you can't take the brushes out and drip some screen cleaner spray onto the commutator (my preferred method for cleaning them - it evaporates after you reassemble the motor and spin it by hand a few times).

[Bernard]

take the brushes out and drip some screen cleaner spray onto the commutator (my preferred method for cleaning them - it evaporates after you reassemble the motor and spin it by hand a few times).

 

Welshbloke - Is this the same cleaner you use on a computer screen? This sounds like a great way to clean brushes. I would take them out and just rub them is a clean paper towel.

[Welshbloke]

Yes - I bought a spray bottle of it from Aldi a couple of years ago. I'm a bit worried about running out as it doesn't seem to be that easy to find locally. I've used it on numerous HO motors and even got a few apparently dead ones to work again (like the £5 Hornby Dublo "wreck" that is now a sweet running 4-6-2 Duchess class again).

[cteno4]

Yes - I bought a spray bottle of it from Aldi a couple of years ago. I'm a bit worried about running out as it doesn't seem to be that easy to find locally. I've used it on numerous HO motors and even got a few apparently dead ones to work again (like the £5 Hornby Dublo "wreck" that is now a sweet running 4-6-2 Duchess class again).

 

This is most likely electronic contact cleaner and you would not spray it on your computer screen!. basically very volitile solvents under pressure. you hope that it solvates and blows out the debris, oils, etc and then evaporates away. just have to make sure of the plastics around it! there are some that are made specifically for motors like this and play nice with the non metallic parts in most motors (like the winding insulation).

 

actually you can remove the brushes on the DE10 motor pretty easily. the end motor fame snaps off and lets you pull the brush cylinders out. i did this with aarons and cleaned the brushes and cylinders and tried to clean the pickups as best i could with a qtip. i did not go at it with any contact cleaner as i dont have anything that i trust with the plastics on the motor. since aaron was getting (got) a new replacement motor after we get the new motor in i want to experiement with the old motor to see if it can be cleaned up. going to try some contact cleaner and also then the ultrasonic bath (maybe just that first to see how well it works on its own). want to see if this is a motor problem or a drive train problem. if we put the new motor in and it has the same problem then its a drive train or possibly a electrical path problem. i did put the volt meter on the motor a few times when it would stop and the motor was getting current, so i think its more of the drive train getting hung up and the beaten motor just not having enough to turn over when hung...

 

cheers,

 

jeff

[Welshbloke]

What I'm using is definitely screen cleaner, it says so on the bottle (not an aerosol, it's a pump-action sprayer). Judging by the smell it's alcohol-based. It does not seem to bother plastics.

 

I'm now looking at similar problems having bought a non-running Tomix EF64-1000 with the same spring drive system. It was listed as (and is) cosmetically excellent but not working, so I don't mind having a tinker with it. The motor does spin with a bit of prodding so I suspect it needs a good oiling followed by letting it run for a while.

[Welshbloke]

Well I may have been a little hasty - the motor seems less inclined to cooperate. I think it's definitely something to do with the brushes as it seemed to improve when I pressed the brush holders in. Has anyone managed to persuade them to come out without ruining the motor?

 

If all else fails I think I can get an 0604 motor for about €7 or so from Hobbysearch. They're listed as "printing" which I assume means that they're due into stock shortly?

[CaptOblivious]

If all else fails I think I can get an 0604 motor for about €7 or so from Hobbysearch. They're listed as "printing" which I assume means that they're due into stock shortly?

 

Looks like they're in stock to me! http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10084015

[cteno4]

Well I may have been a little hasty - the motor seems less inclined to cooperate. I think it's definitely something to do with the brushes as it seemed to improve when I pressed the brush holders in. Has anyone managed to persuade them to come out without ruining the motor?

 

If all else fails I think I can get an 0604 motor for about €7 or so from Hobbysearch. They're listed as "printing" which I assume means that they're due into stock shortly?

 

on aaron's de10 that had what we think is a m4 motor you can just pull the brush cylinders out from the motor. watch it as the brushes are inside the cylinder with springs behind them. i cleaned out the brushes and cylinders the best i could along with the rotor contacts. did get the engine running better. also noticed there did appear to be some grit on the magnets next to the rotors. not sure if it rubs, but maybe might be causing some poor performance on aarons motor also. he was able to source an m4 from a different source and as soon as i have that one installed i want to drop the old one in some cleaner and the ultrasonic cleaner to see if its possible to rehab the old motor.

 

that whole drive train seems to be a tad cranky as i think it can rub and cause hangups in a lot of ways. the motor is pretty open also so might be prone to sucking up crud and thus lowering its performance and then if there are drive train snags just increase the potential to hang up and sputter or cease.

 

you can thank arron for hobbysearch having the m4 in stock now! he asked them if it was possible to order and they checked into it. that apparently consists of them adding it to their online catelog in order to order it from their supplier. they had emailed back they did not think they could get it a few months back. guess the attempt did in the end come through and now they have something in stock!

 

cheers

 

jeff

[Welshbloke]

Thanks - I'll have a go at pulling the brushes out. My motor only seems to run in one direction and then very roughly, with a lot of vibration. I've reassembled the loco without the motor for now to avoid losing any parts.

 

An alternative: Have you seen the 8513 Kani 24-0 baggage van? This has a motor installed, and would have no trouble with propelling the loco and a passenger train.