DE10 = DEAD

[Guest ___]

My DE10- that arrived last week which has been nicknamed "Growly" died today. I didn't have much time to get to know Growly. She loved to growl and was known for short and sudden bursts of speed.  Today she made it half way around rthe inner loop track of the JRP layout with four Kato cement cars when she encountered SDS, Sudden Death Syndrome and will be missed.

 

I should have known when the eBay seller sends me the first email saying, "he's a great runner, and you'll have years of service from it." it should have been interpreted as, "You might last three of four laps then require a total rebuild."

 

Jeff from the club has her right now and was going to give her a lube job which I thoguht would have quieted Growly's noise, but as of yet no word on the cause of the failure. Let us pray for Growly's recovery and resurrection, if possible.

[CaptOblivious]

Check yer PM's: It's Tomix 0604.

[CaptOblivious]

Shashinka,

 

Have you considered the three-pole that HS has for sale? I can't really imagine that it would make the performance of this notorious model worse, and it would at least give you something to use until we can track down a proper 5-pole motor.

[Martijn Meerts]

Bill, I think he *IS* learning... The hard way ;)

 

I can't even count the number of trains I've ruined growing up with and getting used to them. I remember when I thought it was fun to have 2 trains crash into each other at full speed ;)

[Guest ___]

Shashinka,

 

Have you considered the three-pole that HS has for sale? I can't really imagine that it would make the performance of this notorious model worse, and it would at least give you something to use until we can track down a proper 5-pole motor.

 

First motor in about 15 years I've burned out (Assuming that's what it was, and that is till under some debate) I'm not sure if the M-5 motor (TOMIX 0605) wuill work or not. Jeff was saying that the worm drive is pretty precise.

 

Not even sure if I was the one who plugged the track power in to the AC or not. Nor was Jeff 100% sure that what did the engine in. I believe it most likely was. There were four of us setting up entire layout for the Great Train Show Friday night, after work, and after an hour and a half battling Beltway traffic. We were rushed, tired  and on a set time scale. I take responsibility on that becasue as soon as the engine did not run, I should have also checked that connection sooner than the under table wiring, and switch alignments.

 

If, I can't get one from any of the Japanese sources I have, or the German ones suggested, I have a friend Japanese friends who owe me a couple of favors. If that fails, I might just piggy back an M5 from my next order. Worst case scenario, I can make a dummy/scenic element out of old Growly.

[cteno4]

Well now its ALIVE! call me dr frankenstein... Aaron's DE10 is now working. I tore it apart one more time, cleaned everything and kept fiddling with all the parts while re-assembling and was able to finally get it all working. only rub is it runs about half as fast as a new de10 (hey but they putt putt along), but runs very smoothly and actually pretty quiet. new ones growl much more. so the motor is working, just not quite as powerful as the new motor. this is either due to the ac going through it for a while or the age of the motor, who knows, but it works.

 

The growl of these engines are due to the drive train they use. the drive shaft and worm gear is actually two long springs (very tightly wound for the drive shaft part and loose turns to create the worm gear area). since its a spring when it spinning it will be not perfectly straight and start to want to fly off center. thus the ends of the drive shaft will want to rub in the fitting it sits in and make the growl. at least it sounds sort of like a diesel engine! and interesting drive train that may be sturdier to sudden stops, but seems to have a lot of potential friction points.

 

I can now field strip a tomix de10 in like 2 minutes!

 

cheers,

 

jeff

[CaptOblivious]

 

I can now field strip a tomix de10 in like 2 minutes!

 

 

I know what that's like. I've had to pull mine apart and put it together so many times…and I'm not done. I have a new decoder to install, replacing the one I fried, along with some lube.

 

Hurray for Ol Growly! I guess maybe Shashinka's is more like Ol Slo-Poke now :D

[Guest ___]

I think, it will still keep the name Growly.

[cteno4]

folks will wonder why as he now purrrs

 

jr

[Bernard]

I'm happy for "Growly's" speedy recovery! Aaron, you said the train has a spring as a drive shat that connects the motor to the gears in the truck? My Tomix Furano Express has that same type of mechanism and it is the loudest train I have bar none! When I first got it I tested it on DC before converting it to DCC. Even after taking it apart and lubricating it, it still ran loud. It is by far the loudest train in my roster and I think it was one of the early versions of the Tomix trains.

[Guest ___]

I can't wait for TOMIX to perfect sonic ionic drive system.  ;D

[cteno4]

I'm happy for "Growly's" speedy recovery! Aaron, you said the train has a spring as a drive shat that connects the motor to the gears in the truck? My Tomix Furano Express has that same type of mechanism and it is the loudest train I have bar none! When I first got it I tested it on DC before converting it to DCC. Even after taking it apart and lubricating it, it still ran loud. It is by far the loudest train in my roster and I think it was one of the early versions of the Tomix trains.

 

Well that is a Diesel so should make some noise! good to know, i have one here in my overhaul pile that was making some noise so now i know that maybe just natural for it! wondering if tomix was using this mechanism on DMUs and locos to actually make a diesel growl noise! One of our club members said that back in the 80s atlas used this spring drive train mechanism in a few locos and quickly abandoned it...

 

On aarons i found that the noise and performance were very touchy on the reassemble. turns out that even though the two drive shaft end collars are the same part, there definitely seemed to be a directionality to them. this maybe from some wear in them from past use making them want to be on that end when reassembled. also just how the whole thing went back together had a big effect if the whimpy motor in aarons would work at all. once i found the right configuration and carefully got it re-assembled it purred! The one last thing i did on the final successful re-assembly was to clean everything carefully again. there may have been a tiny piece of grit that would easily get caught up between the grooves in the spring drive shaft and the end housings. i lubed my new tomix de10 (the re-release is like 95-98% the same internally), but they did not quiet down much. i didnt tear them totally apart and clean them though. may try this some time as an experiment to see if small bits of grit may be causing this as aarons now purrs at the same speed (but aaron's requires almost 2x the voltage due to the weak motor) where my new one growls (aaron will probably be pissed off i ruined his sound effects generator!)

 

To that end i finally broke down and ordered a cheap ultrasonic part cleaner from Harbor Freight to do maintenance. figure a quick jolt in cleaning solution then some isopropyl alcohol. just need to build a little drying blower to clear the isopropyl fast.

 

I also hope i can catch one of the professional workshops on loco maintenance that are give at some of the train shows. couple of the chaps are expert at how you can apply synthetic teflon and silicon coatings to certain parts to dramatically increase performance and reduce wear and noise and not use oils and grease that can dry out and collect schmutz. Actually found many trains come very dry with little or no lubricant from the manufactures. many times this is the motor bearings that seem to be the driest and respond the best to just a tiny amount of very light synthetic oil.

 

cheers,

 

jeff

[C62]

I have read the statement about maintenance on http://www.wellingtonmodels.com/.

Is it true? When my MicroAce DF50 arrived it did not run as silent as my other MicroAce locos. I applied some small drops of Roco loco oil and since then it runs silent and very smooth. So I think sometimes a little bit of lubrication is useful.

 

Thomas

[cteno4]

This is something that i have heard a lot of from some dealers. I doubt all models have teflon coatings. some seem to have them as they seem totally dry and run super smooth. others are dry and run like a hair dryer youve just poured sand through...

 

That being said I have found quite a few micro ace trains in particular run poorly as delivered and a tiny amount of high quality synthetic oil on the bearings and some main friction points really improve their performance immensely. This has also happened with a few tomix and kato trains.

 

that being said i am going to try and learn more the very fine details of performance enhancements and maintenance for locos.

 

one thing i really also want to do is try out cleaning a loco's drive train parts and trucks well with an ultrasonic cleaning to see how that helps. i am starting to think many of the problems are just due to grit in the system. some of this may just be the new loco stuff (ie tiny bits of extra plastic that get worn off right away) and the rest just the gunk sucked up while running.

 

also plan to start running the tomix vacuum car around on the club layout before we start each show! trying to assemble a good track cleaning train to 'do it all'

 

cheers

 

jeff

[Guest ___]

That's on my list of things to grab one day, track vacuum and cleaning card, though I do hear a lot of things about how they suck.

[cteno4]

That's on my list of things to grab one day, track vacuum and cleaning card, though I do hear a lot of things about how they suck.

 

pun intended?! the tomix vacuum does suck well. folks have found it to pick up all sorts of smutz on their layouts. not sure how well the track cleaner feature of it works with the buffing wheel. Matthew used his a couple of time on the layout, but i was not there. i havnt got the rail cleaner solution for my tomix cleaner car yet so cant say.

 

il leaning towards using an aztec, Roller type system for the track cleaning part. folks love them and bob uses it on his huge unitrak layout successfully. last thing is a magnet car. dont thing thats as important for us on the jrm layout, but stray metal bits does come in now and then and can be a disaster if it gets into a motor... of course having a track cleaning train is much more important for a permanent layout where you cant get in and clean by hand easily like we can with the temp jrm setups.

 

really for the jrm layout we should be vacuuming the track by hand after we put it down. i keep looking for a simple and light vacuum we can use at shows to just give each track layer a good suck before the next set of stuff goes down. would be fast and simple and would probably help save our trains some grit.

 

BTW matthew and philip created a drink called the rail cleaner that is the same light blue color as the tomix track cleaner and i think some dollop or layer of something red (or maybe it was a red cherry) to do a rising sun! served in a martini glass with a piece of code 50 rail as the swizzle stick!

 

cheers,

 

jeff

[CaptOblivious]

I have read the statement about maintenance on http://www.wellingtonmodels.com/.

Is it true? When my MicroAce DF50 arrived it did not run as silent as my other MicroAce locos. I applied some small drops of Roco loco oil and since then it runs silent and very smooth. So I think sometimes a little bit of lubrication is useful.

 

Thomas

 

I wonder about the statement on that page. Every locomotive I've purchased, Tomix and Kato alike, has been well lubricated. Kato's instructions are quite clear: The loco has been lubricated at the factory, don't mess with it unless you know what you're doing. Indeed, sometimes they do have to be oiled or greased! But maybe what they mean is this: That the factory lube is sufficient, and adding more is a mistake, which is often true.

[Martijn Meerts]

Oil and especially grease can be tricky. Buying a new train should usually be fine, but buying an older train that's been stored in the box for a long time will most likely require new oil/grease (which means cleaning away the old.) Grease hardens over time.

 

Also, considering we order from foreign countries most of the time, we have no idea what kind of weather conditions the trains are subjected too. It wouldn't surprise me that if a package goes from very warm to very cold and back to very warm again, it has some effect on the lubrication.

[Guest ___]

Obviously pun intended, LOL. I thoguht about grabbing one or two of the TOMIX track cleaning cars. I'd like to have one in suck mode while another in pad clean. Looked at the Aztek, but man is that expensive. I see the TOMIX is a hundred bucks but comes with an engine at least.

 

That aside which is a separate post entirely. The Green Liner that I got last month sure sounds like it can use a lube job, so while the manual may state not to lube it, I wonder whether or not that is correct per say. If the models are hand assembled, there is going to be a variance as to whether or not the amount of lube per model, per assembly is going to be consistent especially among models and assemblers. Sounds like a great opportunity for a Six Sigma project to me.

[cteno4]

In my experience i have found the need for lubing and cleaning is a total random thing. i have had brand new trains be totally dry and growling, even a couple that had smutz/grit in them that needed cleaning out. then i have some locos since i was a kid that still purr right along even after spending 20 years in storage!

 

I really am starting to think most problems are grit more than anything else. Just discovered one of my dr yellow 922 trucks has something in it. still have not figured out how to tear that truck apart to clean it, but it was grinding bad enough that it was giving the symptoms of a broken drive shaft! perhaps the ultrasonic cleaning will work on the whole truck at once!

 

on the Aztec you might also look at the simple one with just the roller in it. or also look at the centerline roller car. the atlas cleaner car is the tomix with just the atlas name stamped on it. you can get them on ebay sometimes for as low as $30.

 

the main cleaning element is the roller that has the handiwipe covering that you soak with isopropanol or goo gone. these really help lift and remove the gunk. some folks do two in a row, first with cleaner and second dry to pick up gunk and excess cleaner. Bob uses a centerline on his layout and it works great on the unitrak and really picks up the gunk!

 

Im starting to work on a cleaning train to try and get the ultimate pickup. current plan is tomix sucker, followed by a magnet car (planning on building this out of a small flat or container car), followed by a cleaner reservoir car (i have a heki that just spreads cleaner on the track), then a centerline dry roller. might follow that all up with an atlas (tomix) cleaner car in buff mode (i have an atlas i got very cheap that has some issues, but think is fixable). issue will be having enough motive power and amps to pull the beast!

 

btw apparently the ultrasonic cleaner is perfect for cleaning the aztec or centerline rollers!

 

cheers,

 

jeff

[Guest ___]

Well, got the DE10 back home today, made a half lap around the layout and died again. I'm not sure if I can get that motor from Japan.

 

Alpine, I think I may have to reply ion ya to find me that motor after all. If that motor doesn't work, then it maybe time to make a dummy out of Growly.

[CaptOblivious]

Well, got the DE10 back home today, made a half lap around the layout and died again. I'm not sure if I can get that motor from Japan.

 

Alpine, I think I may have to reply ion ya to find me that motor after all. If that motor doesn't work, then it maybe time to make a dummy out of Growly.

 

That sucks!! That is really rotten. I'm sorry to hear it.

 

You should seriously try the 3-pole at HS before you make it into a dummy…that would just be too sad for me to bear, I think.

[Guest ___]

I'm hoping maybe Alpine may still be able to find that motor before I convert it in to a dummy.

[alpineaustralia]

Is it a Tomix motor for a DE10?

What is the number of the motor? (ie. 0613, 0623 etc etc)?

[cteno4]

Its the 0604, marked M04 on the motor itself if i remember correctly. only problem with it is that i think that trying to use a different motor is that with the spring drive train the positioning of the motor has to be perfect or the spring drive chain binds up. this was one of the problems with aaron's in that if the thing does not go back together just right it binds up enough to seize. even though the two ends collars that hold the ends of the drive trains are identical, i found they definitely had an orientation. i expect this is due to wear making them slightly different on the inside of the collar.

 

this is odd since it tested it quite a bit and could not get it to seize up at all... aaron took it home and dead in a foot... i think he has a noid at his house. only thing i can thing is that the motor seems to have lost like half its power that it sucked a small piece of something into it again (hair or grit) and it was just enough to stop it. i cant believe the bouncing around it got in transport back to his house would cause it to seize.

 

if aarons game i can try and clean the motor itself this time. been chatting with a couple of guys who have rescued some old and water damaged motors with success. ultra sonic cleaner also showed up this weekend so can also try using that to clean all the parts well.

 

cheers,

 

jeff