Is DCC worth it for a large temporary layout?

[seabilliau]

I just started in n and before I proceed further I want to start off in DCC, but my layout will be temporary and fairly large. Because I plan on using kato unitrack v16, it will be about 16 feet In length at a minimum. I need the radius for my current loco stock.

  My real question comes to this, what is the distance between feeders I can get away with?  I would hate to put feeders every 3ft as I'd have wires going everywhere. Is it worth it to go dcc with this size layout when it is temporary or should I stick with dc?

[cteno4]

Seabilliau,

 

DCC has its bennies, but you will need decoder equipped equipment and more feeders with a heavier trunk line.

 

on a 16' loop you could do with like 4-6 feeders (like every 6-8ft) and probably work fine on dcc. the old jrm layout was just loose unitrak snapped together and it was about 14' x 4' and the big viaduct loops had only two feeders and things worked fine. there was a tad of a voltage drop in one area so 4 feeders would have taken care of all of that. the big folded figure 8 on the lower level had i think 3 feeders total. again a little voltage drop in one area and going to 4 or 5 would have helped that.

 

best feeders are ones where you just solder some 16 or 18g wire to the under side of the tracks by cutting some little slots, but for table top setups it does make it hard to totally flatten. the unitrak power feeds work well, but are small gauge wire and extensions are not cheap, but you can always just clip them and solder them all together into one larger trunk to each throttle.

 

if you dont already have a lot of dcc might be fastest and cheapest to just go dc. if you do want to plan ahead for dcc just use a beefier trunk line (like 12 or 14g) and you can always go to dcc and if you find problem areas you can always add more feeders as needed if your track is not nailed down.

 

i would stay away from the joiner connectors, they tend to snap easily. we used them in one curve spot on the old jrm layout and they kept breaking all the time and never gave a great power feed. some folks will take 20g wire and slip it up and wedge it between the bottom of the unijoiner and the rail to make joint connections. these have mixed reviews as they can make for an uneven rail joint at times and are not super solid, but for a temporary setup thats not getting ripped up a lot it might work fine as a very fast and cheap way to get started and also a nifty way to see if an extra feed somewhere will stop a voltage drop.

 

cheers

 

jeff

[seabilliau]

Thanks Jeff,

Right now I have one complete dcc loco and train and one dc loco. Feeder every 5-6 sounds do-able me.  

 

Second question then. If I am using double track, can I feed both from the same feeder line (series) or does each track require is own feed (parallel)? I.e. can I run the two feeder wires to the same section of track, split the wires and feed both tracks, or should each trAck get its own pair of feeders?

[Nick_Burman]

Thanks Jeff,

Right now I have one complete dcc loco and train and one dc loco. Feeder every 5-6 sounds do-able me.  

 

Second question then. If I am using double track, can I feed both from the same feeder line (series) or does each track require is own feed (parallel)? I.e. can I run the two feeder wires to the same section of track, split the wires and feed both tracks, or should each trAck get its own pair of feeders?

 

Serial feed is OK - split the wires and feed both tracks.

 

Cheers NB

[Guest Closed Account 1]

DCC lets you run your trains not your track.

 

Trains can run prototypically.  Run as many locos as you want.

[The_Ghan]

Seabilliau,

 

I would think VERY carefully before embarking on DCC if I were you.  Your first post suggests that you are disinclinded to spend the time adding feeders where required.  There is no mention as to why you are considering DCC.  The harsh reality is this: you will need a lot more feeders with DCC than you do with DC.  I'm not going to rewrite the DCC manual here but, irrespective of which brand of DCC you might go with, I strongly suggest you review the Digitrax Tech Support Depot from "Welcome" to "Troubleshooting" BEFORE you jump into DCC.  This information is generic to all brands and gives you a good idea of what you're in for.

 

I'm doing the DCC on my subway loop - 10' x 6'.  I have 47 blocks in 17 sections of track.  I have a total of 67 soldered feeders.  At every platform and siding there is a "Slow Down" block and a "Stop" block.  The "Stop" blocks are less than 1' long.  There is plenty of isolated track.  All this needs to be done for block occupancy detection, one of the biggest draw cards that DCC has to offer. 

 

Occupancy detection is the primary building block of DCC upon which automation, collision avoidance, signalling, and transponding are based.  Without it you just have a more expensive version of a basic DC system.

 

Finally, here are some important links to other threads here (which will save Martijn and me repeating ourselves).  I've listed them in the correct order for reading.  I really wish these were stickies, actually as we frequently use the same references to answer DCC questions.  Please take an evening or two to read the entire threads as many a good question are answered as each thread progresses:

 

Martijn's Automated Computer Control - Part 1

Martijn's Automated Computer Control - Part 2

Martijn's Automated Computer Control - Part 3

Making precise slow speed stops

Keitaro: DCC - What do you guys think?

DCC Based Automation (With a Transponding Focus)

 

When you're done we'll happily answer any further questions you might have.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[Martijn Meerts]

If you don't plan on going for blocks and computer automation and such, there's no real reason for not using DCC. You don't need any more feeders as recommended for regular DC.

 

You can even make the turnouts DCC and still make it easy to change setup without a lot rewiring, as you can fit Digitrax decoders inside the ballast with a little but of effort. There's a thread on the forum somewhere that shows how to do it.

[seabilliau]

Seabilliau,

 

I would think VERY carefully before embarking on DCC if I were you.  Your first post suggests that you are disinclinded to spend the time adding feeders where required.  There is no mention as to why you are considering DCC.  The harsh reality is this: you will need a lot more feeders with DCC than you do with DC.  I'm not going to rewrite the DCC manual here but, irrespective of which brand of DCC you might go with, I strongly suggest you review the Digitrax Tech Support Depot from "Welcome" to "Troubleshooting" BEFORE you jump into DCC.  This information is generic to all brands and gives you a good idea of what you're in for.

 

I'm doing the DCC on my subway loop - 10' x 6'.  I have 47 blocks in 17 sections of track.  I have a total of 67 soldered feeders.  At every platform and siding there is a "Slow Down" block and a "Stop" block.  The "Stop" blocks are less than 1' long.  There is plenty of isolated track.  All this needs to be done for block occupancy detection, one of the biggest draw cards that DCC has to offer. 

 

Occupancy detection is the primary building block of DCC upon which automation, collision avoidance, signalling, and transponding are based.  Without it you just have a more expensive version of a basic DC system.

 

Finally, here are some important links to other threads here (which will save Martijn and me repeating ourselves).  I've listed them in the correct order for reading.  I really wish these were stickies, actually as we frequently use the same references to answer DCC questions.  Please take an evening or two to read the entire threads as many a good question are answered as each thread progresses:

 

Martijn's Automated Computer Control - Part 1

Martijn's Automated Computer Control - Part 2

Martijn's Automated Computer Control - Part 3

Making precise slow speed stops

Keitaro: DCC - What do you guys think?

DCC Based Automation (With a Transponding Focus)

 

When you're done we'll happily answer any further questions you might have.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

 

Ghan,

 

Thanks for the links. I will definitely read them all before I purchase anything.

 

My reason for going DCC is that I like the control dcc offers for controlling the locos (realistic speed control) and passengers cars (lighting, etc...). I'm not planning on running multiple trains on the same line at the same time (to avoid the need for blocks) nor controlling switches nor computer control.  I just want to run trains on the floor with a temp set up for a weekend and have dcc control of the train. 

 

With that intent in mind is dcc still advantageous? I think so, but just want to get an experienced opinion before I shell out the dough for a Zephyr.

 

Christopher

[KenS]

Second question then. If I am using double track, can I feed both from the same feeder line (series) or does each track require is own feed (parallel)? I.e. can I run the two feeder wires to the same section of track, split the wires and feed both tracks, or should each trAck get its own pair of feeders?

 

Serial feed is OK - split the wires and feed both tracks.

 

It's probably just a nomenclature issue, but in an electrical sense feeds from a DCC track bus are always "parallel", meaning each feed is independently connected to the bus.  The same bus can be used for both tracks, which I think was the real question.  You end up with two wires connected to each bus where you are feeding both tracks.  A "serial" feed would have one wire each and a connection between tracks, and wouldn't work unless there was a train on each track for the current to pass through, and likely wouldn't work well even then.

 

The only downside to a shared bus is that a short on one track is a short on the other.  Meaning if one train runs wrong-way into a switch, everything stops.  Two busses alone won't solve that, since the circuit breaker is on the command station.  But if you are going to run lots of trains on different tracks, breaking up the system with separate busses connected to a DCC circuit breaker (there are several for 2-4 circuits) will help avoid that kind of problem.  But it's likely overdoing things for a temporary layout.

 

The ultimate limit is power or the DCC controller.  A DCC system puts out 2-5 Amps (typically).  An N-scale train uses perhaps 200mA (lit, multi-car train), so you're unlikely to hit the power limits before you hit the number of trains the controller is limited to (the original Zephyr was limited to 10).

[The_Ghan]

... I'm not planning on running multiple trains on the same line at the same time (to avoid the need for blocks) nor controlling switches nor computer control.  I just want to run trains on the floor with a temp set up for a weekend and have dcc control of the train. 

 

With that intent in mind is dcc still advantageous? ...

 

Christopher

 

Chris,

 

I seriously doubt it.  You'd probably have more fun with one of these:

- Tomix TCS Power Unit, or

- Tomix TCS Power and Sound Unit

 

With Tomix trains these power units will give you realistic operation on DC.  They will enable you to control in-car lighting independently of train movement.  These units interpret power and brake control and manage DC track voltage accordingly.

 

A much better solution, especially if you need to pack up your trains each weekend.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[Martijn Meerts]

Chris, like The Ghan says, you won't get a lot of benefit out of DCC if you run just 1 train per line, unless you have a multitrack station in there somewhere, and want to park trains. Of course, that can be done easily with DC and power routing switches as well.

[Dani]

Hi,

 

I work with flex track, each one is 91.5 cm long (36") and I never let a track without feeder because joiners are not always reliable. So that's the space between feeders, 1 meter aprox. if I don't need to cut tracks in shorter sections.

 

Dani.

[Guest Closed Account 1]

my layout will be temporary and fairly large. Because I plan on using kato unitrack v16, it will be about 16 feet In length at a minimum.

 

 

Get yourself a few sheets of board to attach your track to. Then you can slip the sheets behind the couch or covered in the garage. Or trundle it under the bed.

 

I have a 72x30inch folding table for a running loop. It's just enough to experiment with dcc. I can always add a board on top of the table so I can leave my V16 out too and use a sheet of Ready Grass to hide the board.

 

My club has a 40x24 foot Ntrak layout that's all dcc and it gets broken down once a month to travel to a show, a non model train related event or a senior community.

[Bernard]

Hi,

 

I work with flex track, each one is 91.5 cm long (36") and I never let a track without feeder because joiners are not always reliable. So that's the space between feeders, 1 meter aprox. if I don't need to cut tracks in shorter sections.

 

Dani.

 

I did the exact same thing with my layout (it's also all flex track) Some people might think I over did it, but I've never had an electrical problem. Having wired a layout for DCC, I can't imagine doing it temporarily....lots of soldering of feeder wires to the main buse lines, but there is nothing like controlling your train with DCC instead of the track in DC.

[inobu]

Chris,

 

Based on what you are saying you have no choice but to go DCC. To really sum things up the difference between DC and DCC is like a fish tank verses a pond. Fish tanks are set no real variations where as a pond incorporates real world elements.

 

The question is which scenario suits your personality? Based on your initial layout plan you are a pond guy. A 16' fish tank is a pond made out of glass.

 

From what I read you have no choice but to go DCC. I say that because of how you are starting.

 

A 16' V16 is big for the averaged guy and states a level of intent.

It being a temp layout means this is not the layout you want.

Speed control on your list is a DCC mandate.

 

In all actuality you are taking the better approach as you will learn a lot in building a temp layout first. You will learn a lot from this exercise.

 

Don't concern yourself with the wires. As KenS pointed out just create a bus that will navigate around the track and tap where ever you need to.

 

DCC gives you the ability to do a lot more with a little more effort.

 

Inobu

 

If you really want to make it easy put your plan on paper. Treat it like a project and Project manage it. 

[seabilliau]

Thanks for everyone's input. Since I don't have the ways and means to buy everything at once anyway there will be a gap in time between getting the track and getting DCC anyway.  This will allow me to get familiar with the track and then progress to DCC.

 

The reason it's temporary is that my permanent layout is an 8x4 O Gauge layout and I just do not have the room for another permanent layout. My O gauge layout takes enough time right now as far as scenery goes anyway that I am looking forward to the n scale temproary-living room-floor-layout to just sit and enjoy watching my choo-choos go round and round.

[Bernard]

Thanks for everyone's input. Since I don't have the ways and means to buy everything at once anyway there will be a gap in time between getting the track and getting DCC anyway.  This will allow me to get familiar with the track and then progress to DCC.

 

The reason it's temporary is that my permanent layout is an 8x4 O Gauge layout and I just do not have the room for another permanent layout. My O gauge layout takes enough time right now as far as scenery goes anyway that I am looking forward to the n scale temproary-living room-floor-layout to just sit and enjoy watching my choo-choos go round and round.

 

Now I'm curious to see photos of your O gauge layout.....would you mind posting some....Please?

[seabilliau]

Thanks for everyone's input. Since I don't have the ways and means to buy everything at once anyway there will be a gap in time between getting the track and getting DCC anyway.  This will allow me to get familiar with the track and then progress to DCC.

 

The reason it's temporary is that my permanent layout is an 8x4 O Gauge layout and I just do not have the room for another permanent layout. My O gauge layout takes enough time right now as far as scenery goes anyway that I am looking forward to the n scale temproary-living room-floor-layout to just sit and enjoy watching my choo-choos go round and round.

 

Now I'm curious to see photos of your O gauge layout.....would you mind posting some....Please?

 

Roger that.  I definately will, but, it will be a few days. I'm just about done soldering all the LED ribbon around the buildings and do not want to show the layout until that is done.  Once I get that done, I will post as I will be mostly done with the base level. It is an entire layout dedicated to The Polar Express complete with North pole.

 

Also, UPDATE.  I went ahead and bought the V16 with the Digitrax Zephyr.  I needed the V16 because I have the Bachmann Acela and it needs those large radius curves and since it's DCC...  I have to say I am completely unimpressed with the Bachmann but it is what it is so I'll make do (I also love the real Acela and see it run next to my house all the time).  I also have a Kato NH Budd that runs great.  If all Katos run like that Budd, I'll be Kato fan fer sure.

[seabilliau]

Bernard,

  Here are a couple shots of the O gauge Layout.  Its the Polar Express and I am doing it in Tin Scale style.  Its still in progress but a lot of fun so far.

 

 

 

 

 

[Bernard]

Thanks for posting the photos.....really like your layout!

I inherited my uncle's Lionel trains some years ago, the only problem is the steam engine needs to be repaired.

[seabilliau]

If you are technically inclined and want to try your hand at rpair I recommend checking out modeltrainforum.com.

 

www.modeltrainforum.com

 

Their N boards aren't as extensive as nscale.net or here by any means, but the O Gauge guys are some of the most knowledgeable model railroaders in O Gauge I've ever seen. Very approachable compared to the feel at O Gauge RR.com.  They will gladly help you diagnose and repair and probable can give you the detailed solution in a post or two.  They do a lot of "How To" posts since there are many people in your situation with older locos from their fathers.  Heck, I've seen some of them even have people just send them the locos to repair once in a while.  It's where I learned everything I know so far. 

 

I'm

[wcochran]

will the Tomix TCS run more than one train at a time? And will it run any dc n gauge train?

[CaptOblivious]

will the Tomix TCS run more than one train at a time? And will it run any dc n gauge train?

No, TCS is merely a system to run the lighting independently of the motor—otherwise it has all the same limitations of DC. Don't get me wrong, I really like the TCS technology, and value my high-end Tomix throttle! In my experience, it will indeed run any DC model. I have heard here and elsewhere that the TCS signal could damage DCC decoders, although the NMRA specs specifically require decoders to tolerate high frequency signals, so in theory it should be fine for driving DCC trains as well.

[brill27mcb]

I think we're confusing TCS with CL (constant lighting). Tomix power packs with a CL suffix are basically a pulse-width modulated (PWM) throttle, which uses hi-frequency pulses to power the trains. Many throttles do this. At a given frequency, narrow pulses create a low average voltage and slow speeds, and to speed up the train the pack widens the pulses until they basically merge into a continuous DC voltage.

 

TCS is the Tomix control and cabling system. If you are talking about using their TCS track sensors in combination with the TCS Automatic Control Unit, it runs only one train at a time. The control unit cables in-between the power pack and the track, and it runs one of a number of pre-programmed options, slowing, stopping, starting, reversing the train and throwing up to two track turnouts as appropriate for the selected program. You set the maximum speed with the power pack dial, and it does the rest. Some programs alternate between two trains, and one rotates through three trains, but only one trains runs at any time.

 

Rich K.

Edited January 21, 2013 by brill27mcb

[CaptOblivious]

Bill, you are, of course, correct! Forgive my confusion!