Is it the track. The controller. Or is it the trains?

[Samurai_Chris]

So I have a layout somewhat set up at the moment. And I am forever having to clean the track (Tomix Fine Track)...

 

Now, I don't know if its the track. The trains, or the controllers. But my trains never seem to have a steady run around the circuit. I just find that on some sections the trains simply jutter around, and even stop.. I have put it down to dirty tracks, but I am forever cleaning them?

 

So it is for that reason I am wondering. Is it my Tomix controller that is just not cutting it (ie not enough power to the track) Or is it the Micro Ace motors in my Kyushu 317's? My Tomix N700-8000 Sakura runs just fine, as all wheels draw power...

 

I am still only a newb. And so I would like to know more about DCC, and is it why you guys have gone to that??

 

Chris

[keitaro]

look i have ballasted my track spilt glue on it and only cleaned it a few times (using tomix track) and i don't have issues(except my double crossover).

 

To top that off i have never cleaned yet inside the tunnel nor bridge and i don't have issues there and it's been running for 9 months now or more.

 

I highly doubt it's a cleaning issue. I would try adding more power connectors near the bad areas and see what happens.

 

If you don't have addidtional ones on you, see what happens when you move one closer to the area that is playing up.

 

Do not however place it on the track piece that lose power but one or 2 in front. This will confirm a power issue or joint issue issue.

 

If the piece runs fine then it's power, If the issue still occurs it could be a joint issue then try placing the cable on the piece that looses power and see what happens.

[disturbman]

I would try adding more power connectors near the bad areas and see what happens.

 

Seconded!

[bill937ca]

My first thought is also more feeders.

[The_Ghan]

Hi Chris,

 

Please see my comments below in blue.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

 

So I have a layout somewhat set up at the moment. And I am forever having to clean the track (Tomix Fine Track)...  I presume you are referring to that new layout you are building in your double garage.

 

Now, I don't know if its the track. The trains, or the controllers. But my trains never seem to have a steady run around the circuit. I just find that on some sections the trains simply jutter around, and even stop.. I have put it down to dirty tracks, but I am forever cleaning them?  Well, you've left one important factor out here - environment!  You're set up in a garage.  While I note your walls are painted, there is a ceiling and cornice, etc, the only separation between your layout and the elements is a colourbond steel garage door.  That garage has little protection from huge variations in temperature and high humidity.  My layout is in a room the size of a single garage, under my house (but not subterranian) and suffered terribly from humidity.  My first suggestion is to improve the environment.  In my case, a dehumidifier has made a world of difference.  I recommend one as the first and most necessary piece of equipment supporting any layout.  Reducing the humidity to around 50% or lower will greatly reduce the oxidation on the rails, which I believe is one of your biggest problems.  I'm using an Omega.  It wouldn't be big enough to cope with a double garage size and would be useless until your room is better sealed.

 

So it is for that reason I am wondering. Is it my Tomix controller that is just not cutting it (ie not enough power to the track) Or is it the Micro Ace motors in my Kyushu 317's? My Tomix N700-8000 Sakura runs just fine, as all wheels draw power...   It's not the controller, but it may be the connectors.  For a loop as large as yours you need power connectors every 2-3m to ensure even power distribution.  The cross sectional area of N-scale rail itself is quite small and the resistance begins to take its toll after several metres of track.  Particular motors may react differently to particular track situations such as double crossings or reverse bends.

 

I am still only a newb. And so I would like to know more about DCC, and is it why you guys have gone to that??  The short answer is: more prototypical operation!  You can run several trains on the same loop simultaneously, at different speeds, with colision avoidance, computer control, schedule timetable like operation, etc.  You can even run two trains in opposite directions on the same loop and have them pass each other at a siding, etc.  With computer control you can command a train to go from Fukuoka Platform 2 to Kobokuro Platform 1, for example, and it will choose the best path, change the points, give way to other trains, etc.  All of this sounded magical and mystical to me when I first heard about it so I started reading.  Irrespective of which brand of DCC you ultimately choose to buy, I recommend reading the first sections of the Digitrax Knowledge Base and stop just before Troubleshooting.  Read about the basics, Q&A and case studies.  If you're still interested start a new thread in the DCC section.

 

Chris

[cteno4]

chris,

 

so has the track all been nailed/glued down? have you done any ballasting? moisture from ballasting can get into the rail connectors and causes some folks trouble with sectional track after a while.

 

humidity should not factor into the oxidation of the rails with nickel silver rail, its pretty slow to corrode (thats why its used over plain steel even though it does not conduct as well), but in the long run you can get some corrosion from humidity, but i doubt you have had this up that long. n scale rail cross section can take a lot of amperage, its the nickel silver steel formulation that give the resistance and thus the need for more feeders.

 

thermal expansion from big temp swings could also cause changes in your track joints if its nailed down. do the trains run differently when its really cold or hot?

 

feeders like everyone said will probably do it for you. it sort of sounds like you have some joiners not giving good connections. the tomix all wheel pickup can span sections of track that have weak connections from either side so that may be why only the single car pickups have issues. ive often thought of trying a conductive grease in the joiners to keep them from slowly getting corroded and give better contact. the ultimate solution for this is to solder your rail joints, but then its no longer sectional track and going to live its life that way on your rr!

 

like ghan said the rule of thumb is usually every 2m or so to be safe with feeders. you just have to make sure you put them outside your passing sidings (and not inside them) on your main lines so you can still get the benefit of the point's power routing.

 

was the track brand new when you snapped it together and put it down or used a lot before hand. if used a lot some of the connectors may now be quite loose and thus not making great contact.

 

also the fact that the tomix all wheel pickup is not having problems at all might indicate the ma train might need a good cleaning. check its wheels for muck. you can try the trick of putting a piece of paper towel across the track and soaking it with isopropanol. then with one truck of the power car on the tracks you can let the other one roll on the paper towels over the rails lightly. you need to carefully hold the cars so it just touches the rails and the towel as you dont want to burn out your traction tires! its an effective way to clean dirty wheels. if its dirty you will quickly see two big black streaks on the towel over the rails. a gentler method i use is to take a couple of electrical probes or just two stripped wires attached to your power pack and with the car upside down on the bench (cradled in a cloth or something) touch the wire/probes to the wheels of one truck to power the car up. then using a qtip dipped in isopropanol you can apply it to each wheel to clean it and even do the traction tires if you want gently.

 

good luck and keep us posted!

 

jeff

[Samurai_Chris]

Ok, thanks gents.. I am only running power from the controller. So that might be where my problem is..

 

Can anyone link me to what I need (feeders) in order to get more power to the track.. I think this may be my issue..

 

Chris

[keitaro]

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10047043 extra feeder cable

 

and http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10010013 Extension cable where needed  + http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10010012 branch cable (splits 1 cable to 2 cables)

 

 

Likely you will only need 2 branch cables and 2 extra feeders per track. This will give you 2 extra feeders per track but i would recomend buying 3 of each just incase.

[cteno4]

chris,

 

one other little trick to try is to take some needle nosed pliers and gently squeeze the metal part of the connectors at the track joints in the areas that you are having problems.

 

but if you only have one feeder for that whole loop then you most certainly will need some more. if you ever go DCC its even more critical.

 

if you dont want to tear up track to put in feeder tracks you can also solder feeders to the outside of the rails. its a bit messy but if you can hide them... this is what folks do that have track down and run into this problem with out ripping up track. theres a few methods to do your own hidden feeders by soldering to the underside of the track or just use more tomix feeders where you have track sections that can take them.

 

also helps to just have the small gauge tomix feeder wire go just below the layout then use a larger gauge wire for your trunk line around the layout, like 14-18g. some folks use lamp cord for this, its pretty cheap and 14g. this will set you up well if later you do decide to go dcc. some folks on dcc and larger layouts go down to 12g wire, but thats a bit of overkill on your sized layout probably, certainly for dc control. I found some nicely jacketed 2 conductor speaker wire for wiring w/in walls (each wire is separate and insulated and then a nice supple jacket around both wires) that was about the cheapest we could find. we used 16g on the jrm layout and its about your sized layout. we have feeders in most all the modules so usually about every 1-2m and no issues with this. ours is old unitrak that has had the hell beaten out of it over the years when we built the layout fresh each time, but going strong now that its screwed down.

 

its all simple soldering and some heat shrink to seal it up if you want to roll your own trunk lines. the tomix wires should work ok for dc, but may not be big enough for dcc later, but you could convert it later if you went dcc to a big trunk line.

 

jeff

[The_Ghan]

Jeff,

 

I agree with your earlier post except to say that I stand by my mention of humidity.  My Tomix and Peco track was oxidising quickly before I bought the dehumidifier.  By quickly I mean you would see a noticeable difference when cleaning a rail after just one week.  Granted, the humidity was up around 85% in my granny flat and I now keep it sub 45%.  I've cleaned my track only once since adding the dehumidifier late last year.  Perhaps in your part of the world humidity isn't a problem, but we're in the warm, temperate, east coast of Australia mate!    In the Ipswich / Brisbane area where Chris is located it can be humidity central.  Like Sydney, they are expecting rain and thunderstorms daily for the next week.  To give you an idea I just looked up the climatic records for Ipswich.  The mean temperature and humidity for February at 9:00am is 25.8^oC (78.5^oF) and 70% and both get worse as the day goes.  Right now at 2:00pm it is 29^oC (84^oF) 66% humidity and a thunderstorm on the way.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[Samurai_Chris]

Well guys, you all made very good points about what I should do. I will quite obviously try all in order to fix the situation. The garage would have certain areas where contaminants will get in. Humidity is a big killer here as Ghan mentioned. But I think that the whole idea of not enough power may be the issue.. It has to be if I am only running one conductor as stated...

 

I am happy that I didn't go too hard with the construction, as only about a third of the circuit is actually glued down... So atleast I am able to go back and re-wire most of it if I have to....

[KenS]

While feeders every 2-3m are a really good idea no matter what, the "loose connector" issue others have mentioned can still be a problem with sectional track, as can dirty connectors.  There can be a lot of connectors in even 2m. The easy way to check this is with a multimeter that tests resistance.  With the power off, touch the probes to the track on either side of a connector (I usually do it a couple of inches away so the connector doesn't move due to the pressure).  If resistance is under about 5 ohms you're good (2 is about ideal although some will be better).  If it's much more than that, it's loose or dirty, although sometimes numbers arround 10-20 don't improve with a new connector (there's a problem with the track).  The really bad ones will be over 20.

 

Connectors are cheap.  While you could try tightening them (particularly if it's ballasted track), usually I just toss them and put in new ones. If you've ballasted the track, you may want to consider soldering a bad joint rather than tearing it up, although you could just solder new feeds on one or both sides to ensure good power, or solder a short wire on the outside of the track around the joint, if you may want to take up the track later and re-use it in a different arrangement.

 

Track cleaners themselves can be a problem.  Some leave an oily residue and if you have a dusty environment can trap dirt if you don't clean frequently.  I tend to like isopropyl alcohol as a cleaner since it doesn't leave a residue, but you have to be careful it doesn't get on painted plastic parts, as it can strip paint.

[cteno4]

Track cleaners themselves can be a problem.  Some leave an oily residue and if you have a dusty environment can trap dirt if you don't clean frequently.  I tend to like isopropyl alcohol as a cleaner since it doesn't leave a residue, but you have to be careful it doesn't get on painted plastic parts, as it can strip paint.

 

ken, good point as the joints/connectors would be the place where this stuff would tend to collect, settle in with time and give resistance.

 

soldering a few problematic joints where you cant easily pull up the track might be worth the sacrifice of reuse of those tracks, but folks have unsoldered unitrak and just replaced unijoiners. might be a tad harder with tomix's more integrated clip.

 

jeff

[cteno4]

Ghan,

 

I've just never heard of nickel silver picking up corrosion like that from humidity. its used specifically for track as it is very corrosion and even very tarnish resistant, even in fresh and saltwater environments. since its usually warm and temperate it should not condense on the tracks a lot (i could see perhaps if there were large temp swings that caused heavy condensation). the south here in the us is pretty much the same with high humidity most of the year and warm, temperate climate and folks use a lot of unitrak and many in garages and sheds not really climate controlled. here in dc we get huge swings in humidity, with the summer being a swamp basically (ask tourists what they think when they come in the summer!) and then very dry in the winter months usually, but even then we get some spikes with higher relative humidity. jrm track has now been stored for almost 9 years now in my garage here in dc where it gets 5-6 months of high humidity w/o climate control and temp range of 40 to -10c and we have never had corrosion issues. Humidity usually an issue for folks with their bench work where it can cause large swelling, shrinking, and warping to wood.

 

perhaps the tomix metal formulation is just more prone to corrosion than the kato unitrak's but i would doubt that much variation. maybe tomix has a higher copper content to boost conductivity.

 

how do you know it was corrosion on the tracks?

 

im wondering if the dehumidifier might be acting as a dust filter for the room. dust and the grease from the locos make up most of the crap that ends up on tracks and wheels. you dont smoke, correct? smoke can also coat tracks and seems to love the metal bits more. ive torn open a lot of electronic equipment that was around a lot of smoke and usually all the metal leads seemed to have the majority of the smoke residue and the resulting dust stuck in it. looks very odd as all the metal parts on the pc board are growing big fuzz, but any coated part the pc board itself isnt...

 

jeff

 

Jeff,

 

I agree with your earlier post except to say that I stand by my mention of humidity.  My Tomix and Peco track was oxidising quickly before I bought the dehumidifier.  By quickly I mean you would see a noticeable difference when cleaning a rail after just one week.  Granted, the humidity was up around 85% in my granny flat and I now keep it sub 45%.  I've cleaned my track only once since adding the dehumidifier late last year.  Perhaps in your part of the world humidity isn't a problem, but we're in the warm, temperate, east coast of Australia mate!     In the Ipswich / Brisbane area where Chris is located it can be humidity central.  Like Sydney, they are expecting rain and thunderstorms daily for the next week.  To give you an idea I just looked up the climatic records for Ipswich.  The mean temperature and humidity for February at 9:00am is 25.8^oC (78.5^oF) and 70% and both get worse as the day goes.  Right now at 2:00pm it is 29^oC (84^oF) 66% humidity and a thunderstorm on the way.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[The_Ghan]

Hi Jeff,

 

Please see my comments below in blue.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

 

... how do you know it was corrosion on the tracks?    Firstly, because it was green and I haven't done anything with green.  Secondly because I haven't cleaned the track since Christmas and it is still as shiney as the day I last cleaned it.  That is, having installed the dehumidifier and cleaned the track once, I've not had to do it again.

 

im wondering if the dehumidifier might be acting as a dust filter for the room.   It has a fairly crude filter.  It does have an ionising feature, but I'm not using it.  dust and the grease from the locos make up most of the crap that ends up on tracks and wheels. you dont smoke, correct?  non-smoker smoke can also coat tracks and seems to love the metal bits more. ive torn open a lot of electronic equipment that was around a lot of smoke and usually all the metal leads seemed to have the majority of the smoke residue and the resulting dust stuck in it. looks very odd as all the metal parts on the pc board are growing big fuzz, but any coated part the pc board itself isnt...  That dust and smoke residue probably attracts moisture too.  I can only report my experience.  The dehumidifier has seriously improved my situation.  I think it will help Chris too, but I'm sure he has other issues with feeders and loose connections too.

 

jeff

 

[The_Ghan]

... The garage would have certain areas where contaminants will get in...

 

Chris,

 

Contaminants!  There's a word to look out for!  I have a pair of brass candle holders that I put in the laundry cupboard recently.  Also in the same cupboard was a container of pool chlorine ... just one shelf down from the candle holders.  A couple of weeks later I opened the cupboard to a faint smell of chlorine and noticed the candle holders going green from the bottom up!  Watch out for chemicals in the garage mate.  This might not be an immediate problem but storing those sorts of things around model railways will have an effect over time.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[cteno4]

ghan,

 

wow brownish green would be the color for the nickel silver patina that would form. still amazed to hear track getting corrosion like that from humidity, but thats what sounds like it was happening. how long did it take to form? i guess its just super damp in your ground floor there with the mold that was forming it much have been really damp environment.

 

chris,

 

yes other chemicals in the air with high humidity can really accelerate corrosion. chlorine is one!

 

jeff

[The_Ghan]

Jeff,

 

It only took a week!  Especially in several areas where I had the track covered, either deliberately or accidentally.  Eg: the track under a piece of discarded shrink wrap went very green whilst nearby track that was uncovered went mission brownish colour.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan