Why are trains slowed?

[bikkuri bahn]

Trains from Canterbury to London have got slower since high-speed rail link, report finds

 

COMMUTERS on traditional trains should have their journey times slashed to restore the service to pre-High Speed 1 levels, Canterbury City Council has recommended.

 

A panel from the council's scrutiny sub-committee spent seven months investigating the impact of the faster trains run by Southeastern from Canterbury West to London.

 

They found that traditional trains had become slower since the introduction of High Speed 1 and suggested a range of improvements in a 40-page report. It was presented to council bosses at a meeting of the ruling executive committee last Thursday.

http://www.thisiskent.co.uk/Trains-Canterbury-London-got-slower-high-speed/story-15214420-detail/story.html

 

What gives?  Why should high speed trains force slower services to become even slower?  Is it an issue of pathing? No timed overtakes?  Wouldn't the traffic operating department tweak the working timetable so that local services kept their original times (or improved them)?  

[Mudkip Orange]

Yeah I'm confused.

[disturbman]

Just to be clear, we are speaking of HS1... something that doesn't interact directly with the pre-existing NR network. And, since 2007, there shouldn't be reasons for delay due to operation of HST because HS1 covers the whole length of the London-Chunnel distance.

[westfalen]

When I was in the UK in 2010 I was listening to some passengers talking at Folkestone Central and it seemed like since commuter trains moved onto the HS1 every second train went that way instead of stopping at intermediate stations, so if you want to go all the way to London you might get there quicker but if you want to go somewhere in between you have a longer wait for a train.

[keitaro]

while i have no idea on how this is and how many tracks are on that line there are it does sound like a pathing issue?

 

Common here in aus at st marys where the all stops local train always gets stuck on platform 1 waiting for the blue mountains and reduced stop trains going to penrith to pass as there are only the 2 lines and they get priority. This is common in peak hour I always get stuck watching 2 trains pass while we are stuck waiting to go to kingswood and werrington.

 

I would assume if this line is similar they had to reduce and spread out the time table to let the express trains past and not block the line maybe ?

 

even in japan on the line to my wifes parents house they said when the rapid trains got increased the local trains took longer to get from point a to b

 

same issue has 2 tracks and the local sits and waits every second stop for the rapid to go past

[disturbman]

Again, we are speaking about HS1... the "expresses" don't mix with the locals on the historical line. It's like saying the Tobu is slow because of pathing problem with the Shinkansen.

 

Or, which is also, possible, I didn't understood anything.

 

But Westfallen's explanation should be the correct one.

[Mudkip Orange]

the "expresses" don't mix with the locals on the historical line.

 

But Westfallen's explanation should be the correct one.

 

Wrong on both counts. The quoted article specifically says "journey times" which almost always means time in vehicle exclusive of waiting.

 

Also, the Class 395s don't stay on HS1, they jump off at Gravesend or Ashford, after which they do indeed run express over the conventional network. So it's definitely possible that there are pathing issues, though I have no idea as to the actual reasons.

[westfalen]

I wonder if they are thinking along the lines of the 395's that divert onto the HS1 dropping you at St Pancras instead of Waterloo or Victoria or where ever you used to end up and you then have to add a trip across town by underground or bus to your journey time negating the faster run down the HS1.

[disturbman]

Good, I was proven wrong. I always had thought the Javelin was staying on HS1... I guess I stayed at the 2009 situation when the service was first introduce

 

Something I should have looked at: http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/your-journey/network-map/

 

And another article at the BBC on the subject from last July:

 

The impact of high speed rail is being investigated after concerns that some mainline services are taking longer to reach some Kent destinations.

 

Canterbury City Council will carry out a review, more than 18 months after the fast trains were introduced.

 

It will look at how high speed services have affected mainline services in Canterbury, Whitstable and Herne Bay.

 

Rail operator Southeastern said speeding up trains would involve missing some stations along the routes.

 

'Passenger choice'

A full statement from Southeastern said: "We appreciate that no-one wants to see journey times increase but to speed up trains would require missing stations out along the route, which would not be popular with those towns.

 

"From Canterbury we are encouraged that more people than ever are travelling by train, with an increase of over 30% since the introduction of high speed.

 

"Passengers now have a choice of service and can choose to take a far quicker journey on high speed or use the mainline services."

 

A report submitted to the council' scrutiny committee said: "The high speed service serves Whitstable and Herne Bay in peak hours, but the gain in time is not great."

 

It added: "The other mainline or 'classic' services, principally serving stations to London Cannon Street and London Victoria, still provide two trains per hour to London during peak times, although the total journey time is up to 20 minutes longer since the introduction of high speed services."

 

The local authority said Canterbury council's leader had written to the government and Kent County Council had also lobbied train companies.

 

Domestic high-speed commuter services between Kent and London St Pancras railway station, known as "High Speed 1", began on 13 December 2009 as part of services operated by Southeastern trains on a franchise that runs until 2014, the report said.

 

It added: "However, Southeastern have indicated that there is little prospect of any substantial change to the overall situation on the north Kent line before the franchise is renegotiated in 2014."

 

Now, what would be great, is to find that report.

[disturbman]

And found that on another forum:

 

We are based in Faversham, which I know is under Swale Council rather than Canterbury, but our experience of HS1 is nothing short of an abject failure. My husband gets in the car every morning and drives 32 miles up the M2 to Ebbsfleet to pick the train up there. It costs him £8.00 a day to park as well as £27.80 train fare on top of £100+ a week in diesel but this is preferable to sitting on the train while it crawls up the Medway and stops at every single station en route to Ebbsfleet. The automatic announcements are constant because the stations are so close - it is enough to drive one insane.

 

There is no need to stop at Sittingbourne, Rainham, Gillingham, Chatham, Rochester plus a couple of others. These stations are serviced by countless other trains which run into different mainline stations. If the train made one stop at a Medway station and then carried on, it would speed up the journey time massively.

 

I spoke with a guard yesterday when I also drove up to Ebbsfleet at 4:30 in order to avoid the Faversham Crawler and was told that when HS1 was coming to fruition there were 'election marginal seat' stations which needed to be included in order to win voters. How true this is, I don't know.

 

Were there a fast train from Faversham - a truly fast train taking around the same time as the journey from Ashford - people would be prepared to pay the premium that HS1 commands. As it is, , my husbands experience in a morning is that every train he's been on is only 25% subscribed. It's a complete white elephant.

 

There were a bunch of PR cronies at St Pancras this morning who had excuses for every question he asked them. Their point of view was that HS1 had been a massive success, it was very efficient, commuters liked it etc etc. This is simply not true as evidenced by its lack of subscription.

 

I sincerely hope the powers that be do not ruin the English countryside on HS2 for the same bureaucratic non-efficient nonsense.

[Mudkip Orange]

That criticism sounds a lot like there's a lack of passing opportunities.