Kato lighting kits... old vs. new!

[cteno4]

@inobu

 

Ah .... you have just unlocked a memory buried in the deep, dark, recesses of my mind:  If memory serves me correctly, the colour we see on filtered light is actually the colour missing from the spectrum.  Natural white light includes all colours visible to the human eye (and some).  When we want to see green, we put a green filter in front of the light.  That filter is actually filtering OUT the green part of the spectrum.  If you put a green filter in front of an infra-red light source almost no light passes through at all.  I remember doing this experiment in science at school.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

 

ghan,

 

the plug was in your brain in reverse there. a color filter works by absorbing all the colors from your white light source and allowing only the color that the filter is thru. so a green filter only lets through the green light for you to see transmitted. if you look at the filter it will look green with the white light behind it as well. but if you put it in front of other wave lengths/colors of light the filter will just look black and there will be no transmitted light as there is none of the green light to come thru the filter.

 

when you pick the filter up it looks green as there is light coming from behind it usually. if you put it down on a white piece of paper it will look green as well as the white light goes thru the filter and only the green comes out to reflects off the white paper, and comes back thru the filter to see green. put the green filter on a piece of red paper and it will look black as only green light going thru the filter is absorbed by the red paper so no green light is reflected to come back thru the filter so it looks black.

 

white leds have different peak wavelengths, cool ones have more blue and warm ones have more red. you can try and knock them off some with a color correcting filter that absorbs a bit of one color and lets the rest thru. like using a blue color correcting filter with cool white light to make the resulting white light a bit more even spectrum with a tad of the blue taken out.

 

reflected paint works the same way, green paint will absorb all but green and reflect green light so we see green. shine a red light on green paint and it looks black.

 

cheers

 

jeff

[KenS]

Part of the problem with LEDs is that they're not continuous spectrum emitters.  If there isn't much "orange", an orange filter won't let much through.  Then again, an orange chunk of plastic isn't going to be a perfect filter, and will probably let "more" red than blue through, but if the LED is emitting lots of blue and a little red, it's not going to be as "red" as a bulb (which has a more continuous spectrum) would make it look.  That's probably why even with the filter, the light still seems bluish.

 

For a neat comparison of White (and other) LED spectra to other sources (not including incandescent bulbs, unfortunately), see this site. Here are more charts for other light sources including an incandescent light. As you can see, a "white" LED has a peak around 450nm (blue shading to violet) but emits at other wavelengths, just not as much, while a bulb has a more even emission from ~525nm (green) to ~625nm (orange-red), which we see as a reddish "white".  There's a nice nanometer to color conversion chart on Wikipedia's Spectrum page.

[cteno4]

yeah continuous spectrum filters are usually built for specific light sources and are not cheap! they also cut down on the total luminosity of course, filtering some of the light out.

 

best to find an led that gives you what you want!

 

ive never tried blending a warm and cool led to see what the resulting mixture would look like. have to experiment with that some.

 

Slightly OT ive been dealing with this in the 1:1 scale here at the house with the kitchen redo as ive been doing all LED lighting for it. actually fun to play with the spectrum to pick up more of some colors over others. the granite counter top has some nice oranges in it but the gray/blue is the most of it so i used some warm led floods over it to bring out the orange more and push the blue back a little. amazing how much light you get for so little power! not cheap right now, but only a few years pay off. its just starting to get to the tipping point. ive found some great bulbs for the 40-50w places that are like 9w and like $9 ea. perfect for some stairs and other places its nice to have some light on all the time but takes practically no power to keep them on more of the time. light is definitely warmer than the cfls and pretty close to incandescents on many of them im playing with. on nasty issue with the undercabinet lights is they are such bright point sources of light they really make hot spots on the polished counter tops. working on a diffuser to get rid of this. problem with a polished counter top!

 

jeff

[KenS]

ive never tried blending a warm and cool led to see what the resulting mixture would look like. have to experiment with that some.

 

I effectively did that in my Riverside subway station.  I had "white" (6000K) and "warm white" (3100K) LED strips (surface-mount LEDs with resistors on an adhesive backing).  The "warm white" looked too reddish for a fluorescent-lit station, but the "white" was a harsh blue-white I didn't much like.  Using both strips next to each other the length of the station gave me a nice compromise color (I think it's around 4500K judging by what settings make a photo look "right").

[inobu]

This is too funny... The OP started with a question and we turned it just short of a thesis............lol

 

Hey...........if you want to know something just post the question.........We will make a thesis out of it.

 

Inobu

 

Does anyone have the winning Lotto numbers for Friday?   

[cteno4]

Thesis pasha! We only go for dissertations!

 

Jeff

[keitaro]

Does anyone have the winning Lotto numbers for Friday?     

 

sure

 

C56, E10, D51, DE10, ED61, DD51

 

ohh hang on you ment the real lotto not train lotto

[tantousha]

Wow, this thread really took off... In the end my desire to build out my collection won me over and I got a model of the Narita Express, the last (tear) train I rode on in Japan... Maybe lighting will be my next big project.

 

Nice to see everyone here pursues information as much as I do though. Learned a lot scrolling through this conversation! Kudos!

[keiichi77]

I know these are made for the North American market but has anyone tried the Rapido Easy Peasy lighting in Kato cars?

 

http://www.rapidotrains.com/light_n.html

 

I always wondered if these would work in Japanese N scale equipment.  They put out a nice even greenish light, which looks great in my HO Via Rail cars. 

 

Sometime in the future I would like to light my Super Ozora and can't decide on what to light it with.

 

Jason

[GuyCS]

Hey all,

 

Been reading this post and im still a bit confused, so I get that I need to use the V2 sets if I wish to go DCC in the future, but what is the difference between 11-212 and 11-214. Just ordered the Kato E259 Narita Express (10-847 and 10-848) and want to know which one of the two lighting sets is designed/best for the E259 and if it will also fit the Kato 800 Sakura/Tsubame (10-865) and Kato 787 Tsubame (10-590).

 

Thanks all,

 

Guy

[E6系]

The difference between the two product is the brightness.

 

11-212 = very bright - suitable for contemporary car

11-214 = warmer color - best for nostalgic car or car using incandescent light

 

I would recommend 11-212 for Narita Express and Sakura

 

787 Tsubame and Kamome service lighting has a blue hue.  I suggest 11-214.  If you want accurate lighting then you must consider celophane of blue color enhance.

[Zeppelin driver]

I know these are made for the North American market but has anyone tried the Rapido Easy Peasy lighting in Kato cars?

 

http://www.rapidotrains.com/light_n.html

 

I always wondered if these would work in Japanese N scale equipment.  They put out a nice even greenish light, which looks great in my HO Via Rail cars. 

 

Sometime in the future I would like to light my Super Ozora and can't decide on what to light it with.

 

Jason

Yes,,, yes I have. I'm a little late for your post ,but I just joined the Forum.

The LED's give off a green,-yellow, depends on car interior & roof color. Never any description you would use the word 'white' in.

The color would be great for a 'halloween theme' :confused3: 

Only good for 'old time' car lighting to me. 

Light distribution was spotty as well.

Overall I'd say save your money for something else.

Don't have anything against Radido, and I wish it worked better.

 

And there is the expense of two 'hearing aid batteries' to each car, and they didnt last very long for the price of the batteries.

 

Howard

[GuyCS]

The difference between the two product is the brightness.

 

11-212 = very bright - suitable for contemporary car

11-214 = warmer color - best for nostalgic car or car using incandescent light

 

I would recommend 11-212 for Narita Express and Sakura

 

787 Tsubame and Kamome service lighting has a blue hue.  I suggest 11-214.  If you want accurate lighting then you must consider celophane of blue color enhance.

Hey thanks for responding back.

 

Think i'll use 11-214 for all my trains, i hate how bright and god-like the LED's are so the warmer 11-214 will keep me happy :)

 

Thanks again,

 

Guy

[KenS]

Been reading this post and im still a bit confused, so I get that I need to use the V2 sets if I wish to go DCC in the future, but what is the difference between 11-212 and 11-214. Just ordered the Kato E259 Narita Express (10-847 and 10-848) and want to know which one of the two lighting sets is designed/best for the E259 and if it will also fit the Kato 800 Sakura/Tsubame (10-865) and Kato 787 Tsubame (10-590).

 

You don't need the V2 sets for DCC.  What you need to avoid are the really old bulb-based sets, which can overheat.  But the first-gen LED sets (11-209) are okay on DCC and also compatible with the FR11 DCC decoder.  That said, the V2 sets are better (much less prone to 'flicker') and worth the small premium in price, and should be compatible with any model that specifies compatibility with the earlier sets.

 

All three of the trains you mention are listed as compatible with the 11-209 set on Kato's stock list (click on the model number to see a Japanese page, then scroll down to the bottom and look for the lighting part number). But be aware that that's not always the case. Some older models weren't designed for the lighting kits.

 

And if you do see a model that lists compatibility with the new sets, but not 11-209, it means that you could install the 11-209, but you'd need to cut the interior support posts down slightly. Not worth doing unless you picked up some of the older sets on sale and need to use them.

[E6系]

Hello Mr KenS,

 

The newer Kato models require V2 sets.  V1 sets are no longer manufactured and will not fit in some newer cars, eg: 01 Series Subway car.

 

V2 set will fit older Kato models.

 

Hello Mr GuyCS,

 

11-214 is also LED but it is warmer color.  Also, extra styrene or cellofane will enhance realism.  The brightness of the product was introduced because interior light was not visible in the daylight.  This is not a good solution for dedicated fan.  Mr KenS is correct.  Please do not use bulb kit for DCC.  The car shell will melt.

[GuyCS]

Just ordered 2 sets of 11-214 for Plaza so looking forward to that. Does anyone have any pictures of them installed in a car, one just the normal LED and one with that little orange bit clipped in place, just wanna see if there are any big differences.

 

Thanks,

 

Guy

[KenS]

The newer Kato models require V2 sets.

 

Newly designed models, yes.  Although as I noted you can install the older ones if you trim the support posts slightly, the only difference is the really "new" cars have a tapered end on the post that fits into slots on the light diffuser, where the older cars have flat-topped shorter posts that support either diffuser.

 

However, Kato often releases "new" models with older plastic. For example, last August I bought the 10-1114 E233, which claimed to require the new lighting, but the support posts were the ones designed for old lighting sets, meaning either could be installed. They hadn't redesired the car interior molding, but simply reused the one from older E233 models.

 

I like the new lighting sets anyway, and I really like the new mountings as they hold the diffuser more firmly in position against the LED for more even lighting.  But it's anyone's guess if a specific model includes the new supports, as Kato's documentation can't be trusted.

[GuyCS]

Ta Dah!

trim.U2jHav.MOV

[E6系]

Very nice install.

 

KenS: I haven't noticed such, but most of my recent Kato purchases have been subway cars, which require the V2 set ... also, I have stockpile of 20 x 6 piece set of V1 for future use in older models. :D