The_Ghan Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Keitaro and I have been chatting about the Tomix E1 92059/60 and JR West 100 Series Sanyo Shinkansen 92755. Both sets have two pantos. Both also come with provision for a third panto on one of the cars. On the 92755 model car 4 also has space for a panto. Why? Wiki claims only cars 2 and 6 were fitted with pantos on the K sets. I've just checked my two shinkansen books1. Book 1: p80-81 features the JR West 100 Series Sanyo Shinkansen Kodama 4-car and 6-car sets. It clearly confirms that only cars 2 and 6 are fitted with pantos. Book 2 is silent on the matter. On the 92059 model (E1) only cars 6 and 10 are fitted with pantos but again, car 4 also has space for a panto. Why? Wiki claims only cars 6 and 10 were fitted. Again, my book 1 the diagram on p68 shows pantos on cars 6 and 10 only. Book 2 discusses the E1 on p72-77. The diagrams also only show pantos on cars 6 and 10. So, here are my questions: 1. Why does each model have provision for a 3rd panto when, it appears, that adding the panto would be prototypically incorrect? 2. How should I handle this? There are no parts included to cover the space for the third panto. What does everyone else do? 3. I know the part 0207 (2x pantos) is available, but I don't want it as it's not prototypical. What did everyone else do? 4. Do Kato / MicroAce products have the same issue? 5. Do other Tomix products have the same issue? 1 The Books. As I can't read Kanji very well (but my Katakana and Hiragana are passable) I'll describe the cover of my two books. Book 1: Blue spine, front cover features the cab car of 4 different shinkansen: 700, 500, 800 and E4. Back cover shows E2, 300, 400, and 100 Fresh Green. The price of Y1800 is on the back cover. Book 2: White cover with page numbering starting at the rear. In English: 1/160 [N-Guage] Scale ... a lavishly illusrated book ... Since 1984. All the diagrams are 1:160 scale. Diagrams of 5 shinkansen on the front, including Dr Yellow. Series 0 and E5 on the back with the price Y1714. I hope this all makes sense. Cheers The_Ghan Link to comment
keitaro Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 i'm telling you from my digging the cars were originally manufactured to have a panto but do not. what i cannot find out if there was a reason for this or not. Link to comment
keitaro Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 ok so in the e1 max car 2 is a e155(m1) car 6 is a e155(m1) and car 10 is a E145 (M1s) this is a translation note that auxilary power unit is reffering to the pantograph Form E145 (M1s) Regular seat and the (first floor) Green seat electric vehicle equipped with an intermediate (2nd floor). Organization used as a car 10 M. Public telephone equipped with (from Niigata), a multipurpose room, the main conversion device , auxiliary power unit, a current collector and mounted. New products initially, there were vending machines closer to Tokyo, 2008 March 31, was suspended as far as use. 91 name capacity. Form E155 (M1) Electric vehicle includes a seat usually middle. Organization used as a car 2.6 M. Equipped with main conversion device, such as auxiliary power supply. Vending machine (from Tokyo) , 2008 March 31, was suspended as far as use. (Car / 6 Series 0) 121 110 name capacity (100 series Car / 2). i'm sure if you find a top view pic it will show the panto area with none installed you may also like this link http://www.kitanet.ne.jp/~joyfact/seriesE1.html Link to comment
jappomania Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 well, about real train, that's what I know 100 K series have only one "hole" instead the panto on car 4 because the original 100V/G set cars had it. don't forget that 100K and P has been obtained with some "cut & paste" from V set cars and transplanted cab section of disbanded G sets. also some panto as been removed from original car formation because the regular service demonstrate there was not necessary (reduced from 6 to 4 on 100V set, 200 E set and F set) on rooftop of 100 and 200 series has been only removed, on 300 series the third panto has been removed and also the shield, you can see the difference with the other 2 panto originally equiped on car 9; the current collector cover between cars is elongated. E1 had never been equiped with third panto so you can't find the "empty hole" on rooftop http://homepage3.nifty.com/ho-tec/siryou1/siryou/e1si.html if you have the Tomix correct car set you can see this (not with Kato sets) more photos.. http://homepage3.nifty.com/ho-tec/siryou1/sitop.html panto position on various 200 cars formation http://homepage3.nifty.com/ho-tec/siryou1/siryou/200si.html I hope this help you Ciao Massimo Link to comment
keitaro Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 massimo the 2nd car e155 101 has the panto slot it's covered though with a tray http://homepage3.nifty.com/ho-tec/siryou1/file/siryou/e1/m1_02.jpg you can see clearly that there is a second dip. though other cars do not if you look at this one for example. http://homepage3.nifty.com/ho-tec/siryou1/file/siryou/e1/m1_03.jpg My theory is that the e155 101 is a cut and paste of the other 2 slightly changed minus the panto that or the test set may have used 3 and they removed realising no need for a third one. Link to comment
jappomania Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 about the panto I'm 99% sure that's never been applied, I have the 1993/94 JRF Magazine with some photos of the 2 original pre-production sets with DDS logo and I don't find infos about the third panto Some cars have the same chassis but the internal/external equipement can be different (eg. 155/0-100 and 156/0-100) Link to comment
The_Ghan Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 E1 had never been equiped with third panto so you can't find the "empty hole" on rooftop http://homepage3.nifty.com/ho-tec/siryou1/siryou/e1si.html if you have the Tomix correct car set you can see this (not with Kato sets) Thanks Massimo ... hmmm ... I must have the wrong car ... perhaps someone can confirm ... I might need to purchase another 92060 from somewhere because I can't find that car separately. Cheers The_Ghan Link to comment
The_Ghan Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 massimo the 2nd car e155 101 has the panto slot it's covered though with a tray http://homepage3.nifty.com/ho-tec/siryou1/file/siryou/e1/m1_02.jpg you can see clearly that there is a second dip. though other cars do not if you look at this one for example. http://homepage3.nifty.com/ho-tec/siryou1/file/siryou/e1/m1_03.jpg Nice pickup keitaro. So, back to my model. Car 2 has the recess and four shallow holes, presumably to add a panto. I don't have a cover plate. I have the short masts for each car. The instructions show how to install the masts but make no mention of any cover plate. My question now is this: Does a cover plate exist or do we run the model as is? Cheers The_Ghan Link to comment
The_Ghan Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 about the panto I'm 99% sure that's never been applied, I have the 1993/94 JRF Magazine with some photos of the 2 original pre-production sets with DDS logo and I don't find infos about the third panto Some cars have the same chassis but the internal/external equipement can be different (eg. 155/0-100 and 156/0-100) Thanks Massimo, Yes, this might explain why Tomix use 2844 for a number of different cars. I'll compare it closely with the drawings in my book tonight. Cheers The_Ghan Link to comment
keitaro Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 massimo the 2nd car e155 101 has the panto slot it's covered though with a tray http://homepage3.nifty.com/ho-tec/siryou1/file/siryou/e1/m1_02.jpg you can see clearly that there is a second dip. though other cars do not if you look at this one for example. http://homepage3.nifty.com/ho-tec/siryou1/file/siryou/e1/m1_03.jpg Nice pickup keitaro. So, back to my model. Car 2 has the recess and four shallow holes, presumably to add a panto. I don't have a cover plate. I have the short masts for each car. The instructions show how to install the masts but make no mention of any cover plate. My question now is this: Does a cover plate exist or do we run the model as is? Cheers The_Ghan the 100 series k sets like the jnr and kodama have cover plates not sure on the e1 Link to comment
jappomania Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 E1 had never been equiped with third panto so you can't find the "empty hole" on rooftop http://homepage3.nifty.com/ho-tec/siryou1/siryou/e1si.html if you have the Tomix correct car set you can see this (not with Kato sets) Thanks Massimo ... hmmm ... I must have the wrong car ... perhaps someone can confirm ... I might need to purchase another 92060 from somewhere because I can't find that car separately. Cheers The_Ghan why another one 92060? how many cars you have until now? if you need the 4 single cars to complete your E1 I have it (it's a wrong purchase, I bought them some years ago because I would be sure to have it when I found the start and add on-set, but after I found a complete set so now I have 8 single cars :-) I make photos of my original set (never used, in the same position inside the box like when Tomix sell it so you can control your set and verify if your car formation is correct, stay tuned......) Ciao Massimo Link to comment
jappomania Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 on these photos the rooftop is partially visible... Car 4 on K set retain only the shield but panto was removed http://kakeyama.fan.coocan.jp/tec/100kr.htm http://kakeyama.fan.coocan.jp/tec/100kor.htm http://kakeyama.fan.coocan.jp/tec/e1m4gr.htm http://kakeyama.fan.coocan.jp/tec/e1m3r.htm http://kakeyama.fan.coocan.jp/tec/e1m3.htm Ciao Massimo 1 Link to comment
The_Ghan Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 why another one 92060? how many cars you have until now? if you need the 4 single cars to complete your E1 I have it (it's a wrong purchase, I bought them some years ago because I would be sure to have it when I found the start and add on-set, but after I found a complete set so now I have 8 single cars :-) I make photos of my original set (never used, in the same position inside the box like when Tomix sell it so you can control your set and verify if your car formation is correct, stay tuned......) Ciao Massimo Hi Massimo, Why another 92060? Because of 2 reasons: 1. I bought my 92060 second hand ... and I thought it was not the complete set. I thought maybe the car 2 was substituted. 2. Because car 2 is not sold on its own. It would be excellent if you could make the photos of your original set. Regarding the extra cars: I have bought 2843 2844 2845 and 2840. I believe these are the missing cars, right? I also got a 2851 ... because it was included anyway ... so I have a spare. Please let me know if I've made a mistake there. Cheers The_Ghan Link to comment
The_Ghan Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 on these photos the rooftop is partially visible... Car 4 on K set retain only the shield but panto was removed http://kakeyama.fan.coocan.jp/tec/100kr.htm http://kakeyama.fan.coocan.jp/tec/100kor.htm http://kakeyama.fan.coocan.jp/tec/e1m4gr.htm http://kakeyama.fan.coocan.jp/tec/e1m3r.htm http://kakeyama.fan.coocan.jp/tec/e1m3.htm Ciao Massimo Thanks again Massimo, Firstly, the links you provide are amazing. I added it to my favourites. Awesome photos. Is i your page? Secondly, I am satisfied with my 92755. I think I have a part that fits car 4. Because of work and gym commitments I won't have time to play trains again until the weekend. I shall check everything then. Thanks again. Cheers The_Ghan Link to comment
Guest Closed Account 1 Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Perhaps they expected to distribute this machine to places with different electricity like the TGV. Link to comment
The_Ghan Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 Interesting idea 'Skip, ... or perhaps they were planning a full 16-car consist, which might have needed a 3rd panto. More likely though is that it was just cheaper not to change the car. Cheers The_Ghan Link to comment
jappomania Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Hi Ghan! photos of my original sets (sorry for this delay, but believe me, sometime is really hard to find who's stored each single box, I remember only I bought but....) https://picasaweb.google.com/107727436777465107689/E1MAXTomix#5708670183381111074'>https://picasaweb.google.com/107727436777465107689/E1MAXTomix#5708670183381111074 https://picasaweb.google.com/107727436777465107689/E1MAXTomix#5708667466234487154'>https://picasaweb.google.com/107727436777465107689/E1MAXTomix#5708667466234487154 more photos https://picasaweb.google.com/107727436777465107689/E1MAXTomix you can download it (each around 2,2 mb) inside add-on 92060 you find 2 cars with panto hole but only one is mounted, the first car E155-100 (you can see the photo of rooftop) is without panto https://picasaweb.google.com/107727436777465107689/E1MAXTomix#5708668837615891906 the fourth have it (E145 - green class on upper deck) https://picasaweb.google.com/107727436777465107689/E1MAXTomix#5708668318687606530 2851 single add-on is needed only if you have the small 3 car start set (already inside 92059 original 4 cars start set) https://picasaweb.google.com/107727436777465107689/E1MAXTomix#5708669749511144322 original Tomix pamphlet https://picasaweb.google.com/107727436777465107689/E1MAXTomix#5708665689781935362 Ciao Massimo Link to comment
The_Ghan Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 Massimo, Thanks a million times. You are a legend. OK ... I have everything correct for one consist, with a spare 2851 car because it came with the 2843, 2844, and 2845 that I bought on Yahoo (Y3900). So I'm pretty happy about that. Yes, my E155-100 is exactly the same as yours. I am very much relieved. Also on Yahoo I picked up a full 12-car consist for Y15750. I couldn't resist ... my finger slipped and hit the "click" button !!! ... or something like that ... I don't know what I'll do with the second set ... it depends whether all the cars are correct. I do know that it has the 2847 instead of the 2840 so it will be interesting to see how the consist performs with only one motor. There was a 92059 for sale on Yahoo with the commemorative plaque, but I forgot to bid on it. It sold for less than Y6000. Do you have any thoughts on the value of this item? Great work and thanks again mate! Cheers The_Ghan Link to comment
jappomania Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 well, you bought the second set at good price if you have only one motorized car inside, really good if you also have the second! (bad if the car formation is wrong ) but why the second set? E1 is not so important in Shinkansen history (smallest fleet, only 6 trains), special livery (excluding particular stickers or original DDS logo instead the MAX logo) has never been applied and when you have one original and one renewed livery set it's all. Normally I buy a lot of second and third sets and single cars (if I count Zero, 200 and 300 cars, my roster is over 300 pcs.) but has been bought for kitbashing or to reproduce particular car formation (and some for spare parts). about value, I know only the selling price on Yahoo, I'm sure is possible to find better price, but you need to buy directly on shop and if you aren't in Japan... Complete set: used, already put inside 2 boxes without original single cars jewel case 15-18000JPY (better if original pamphlet is present) used, with original box, pamphlet, paper sleeve 18-20000JPY new, with original box, pamphlet, paper sleeve, without scratch on boxes etc. 20-22000JPY add 2000-3000JPY if the second motorized car is present Start set 4 cars 92059 used to new from 6000 to 9000JPY Start set 3 cars 92212 used to new from 4500 to 7000JPY Add-on 4 cars 92060 set used to new from 6000 to 9500JPY each single add-on car from 1000-2000JPY motorized single car (much hard to find at good price) 3000-3500JPY if you aren't a "package collector" you can find cheapest price, but like every collector item the value is high if it's "like new" like I write on another thread.. car formation for first release 92059+92060+2843/44/45+2840 (or 2847 if you want more traction power) the first release of 92059 have a commemorative little golden plate inside but only the first run, the second run and over don't have it) car formation for second release 92212+2851 (92059 has been splitted in 3+1) 92213 3 cars add-on set or single cars 2843+2844+2845 (still available, has been packed also in single box) 92060 this set has been mantained 2840 (or 2847 if you want more traction power) Note: second motorized single car was avaible for both set series (E156 2840 unmotorized or 2847 motorized) also you can find 3 and 4 car set inside start set with track, trafo, station buildings etc. maybe the price is good but shipping cost is too high! the only complete start set that I bought was the Kato 10-001 with 700 4 cars "Ambitiuous Japan" why? simply, this set is different compared with original 10-397 8 car set and the latest 10-276 4 car set because the Ambitious Japan logo is directly painted on body side, inside the other sets you find only stickers to apply but they are really "shit" (so now I have 2 Kato 700, normal and Ambitious ... and also 2 Tomix, of course) but that's another history.... Ciao Massimo Link to comment
The_Ghan Posted February 14, 2012 Author Share Posted February 14, 2012 well, you bought the second set at good price if you have only one motorized car inside, really good if you also have the second! (bad if the car formation is wrong ) The car formation is correct but it only has one power car. but why the second set? E1 is not so important in Shinkansen history (smallest fleet, only 6 trains), special livery (excluding particular stickers or original DDS logo instead the MAX logo) has never been applied and when you have one original and one renewed livery set it's all. Several reasons for this: firstly I simply like it, the grey/blue colour scheme, the shape etc. but I don't like the renewed livery at all. Secondly, I will be running them. Two consists on the track always looks great - one coming, the other going. Third, I wasn't sure the first set was prototypically correct (I've learned a lot about the E1 over the last fortnight ... and the Tomix model). Normally I buy a lot of second and third sets and single cars (if I count Zero, 200 and 300 cars, my roster is over 300 pcs.) but has been bought for kitbashing or to reproduce particular car formation (and some for spare parts). about value, I know only the selling price on Yahoo, I'm sure is possible to find better price, but you need to buy directly on shop and if you aren't in Japan... First set has worn cardboard sleeves. The pamphlet is supplied but missing its plastic sleeve. The plastic sheets protecting the cars are also missing. Second set has minor wear to cardboard sleeves - shelf wear only. Pamphlet is supplied in original plastic sleeve. Plastic protector sheets also provided. if you aren't a "package collector" you can find cheapest price, but like every collector item the value is high if it's "like new" I'm not a package collector but I plan to look after both sets as best I can. I'll be running the poorer quality set more frequently than the good one. like I write on another thread.. car formation for first release 92059+92060+2843/44/45+2840 (or 2847 if you want more traction power) the first release of 92059 have a commemorative little golden plate inside but only the first run, the second run and over don't have it) car formation for second release 92212+2851 (92059 has been splitted in 3+1) 92213 3 cars add-on set or single cars 2843+2844+2845 (still available, has been packed also in single box) 92060 this set has been mantained 2840 (or 2847 if you want more traction power) I know that thread very well ... but did you get the numbering right on the extra power car? According to HS the extra power car is 2840. Also, on Yahoo. Finally, is there any real value in having a set with the commemorative plaque? Cheers The_Ghan Link to comment
jappomania Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 .. I know that thread very well ... but did you get the numbering right on the extra power car? According to HS the extra power car is 2840. Also, on Yahoo. Finally, is there any real value in having a set with the commemorative plaque? Cheers The_Ghan oops, 2840 is the motorized car, sorry for mistake (bad cut & paste and maybe too much numbers to remeber) and no, if you have the plaque or not, it's the same . The best thing is that you bought the complete set again, if needed, search and buy each single car and the add-on set is not so simple and much expensive (shipping cost from every seller), if possible, one single seller is better (for me) ciao and have fun with both E1 on tracks! Massimo Link to comment
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