T-track, but which dimensions?

[cteno4]

sorry, tough putting that in words! below is a thousand words worth in a drawing of the bottom of the end where the bolt insert holes go.

 

some folks dont bother with using inserts. they just drill a hole just a bit smaller than a standard hex style nut. then they just carefully bang the nut into the hole with a bit of glue around the edge of the hole (epoxy would be the best).

 

advantage - nuts are cheap

 

disadvantage - have to be careful not to get glue into the threads, have to hammer them carefully to get them nice and flat.

 

look around to see what you can get for the bolt inserts. try the local hardware store and buy a sample so you will know what hole to drill or see whats avaliable online to you in europe and the specs will usually tell you the size of the hole to drill.

 

you dont need ultra heavy bolts. the us standard of like 6mm bolts is actually a bit of overkill, was just done since they are super standard and cheap to get. sure something like 3-4mm would work fine as well. see what you can get and the pricing to plan ahead!

 

ask around about shows. or if there is some local cultural event that has something to do with japan/asia that might be a place to take it and find others interested in playing like this! at least folks will enjoy the japanese layout, we do a couple of japanese (non train) events each year with our japanese club layout and folks love it even if they are not train folks. the great thing about a little modular layout like this is its pretty easy to get to a show and setup and does not take up a lot of space.

 

cheers

 

jeff

[Densha]

I guess it's also because of my ignorance in English carpenter jargon. And because of that I totally don't get what you just wrote on those bolts.

First, the picture I uploaded is a bolt, right? Nuts are those things that have to be put on them?

What exactly is an insert?

What do you mean with a "thread" in this case?

I also don't get how to interpret to picture you uploaded, from what side is it?

 

I get the part of the sizes.

 

When my time allows it again I guess I'll ask around a bit.

 

Edit: I guess I get now where the bolt will be put into, from the image here. Also this post from Sir madog from the IG-Nippon forums is quite helpful.

[cteno4]

Densha,

 

sorry its hard to describe this even between two english as a first language people! no worries!

 

the bolt is the long thing with the ridges on it. the ridges are called the threads. there are threads around the bolt and on the inside of the nut. see the picture labels.

 

the threaded inserts are basically nuts that are long and have big threads on the outside of them. these can then get screwed into a hole in the wood and a bolt can be screwed into the insert.

 

instead of buying the fancy insert some folks just glue a nut into the hole in the wood to put the bolt into.

 

this video might help see some of what im talking about with the inserts.

 

 

his inserts in this video dont have the little hex insert fitting that most do (see the other picture below) that let you use a hex driver to screw the insert into the hole in the wood. this guy uses a bolt and nut to hold the insert to screw it into the wood, but more work...

 

hope this helps and is not more confusing. please ask questions happy to help. also might chat with your local hardware store as if they have a good person there they can show you an insert and how it works. maybe pick up 4 and 4 bolts and just do it in your first module to figure it all out and just drill the holes then in the rest to add them later if needed.

 

i can also just take a video of putting in an insert if that would help.

 

cheers

 

jeff

 

cheers

 

jeff

[cteno4]

also martjin could probably explain to you in dutch whats not making sense with my english here as well!

 

cheers

 

jeff

[Martijn Meerts]

Providing I have a clue what you wrote ;)

 

 

I'm still trying to figure out an easy, but sturdy way of connecting modules... But like most things, I tend to over think this as well, and end up with some crazy Nasa construction where something simple would've worked just fine..

 

(Kinda like the Nasa spending tons to come up with a pen that writes in space, whereas the Russians just used a pencil story ;))

[cteno4]

With small modules the unitrak joiners works fine to do the joining. On larger modules something really simple like a couple of pegs between the modules works great? Dirt simple except to keep the holes in the same place!

 

Jeff

[westfalen]

We find the Unijoiners do the job ok. One reason our club switched from N-track to T-TRAK modules for shows was the simplicity in setting up, just clip 'em together and when you're finished pull 'em apart.

 

These are a few shots I don't think I've posted here before of our last show back in October when another club joined us with their modules.

[Sir Madog]

Before I started to build the first modules, I also looked into various ways of joining the modules, other than just relying on the Unijoiners to do the job. I discarded all of them, and I am happy that I did.

 

I guess we all have a tendency to "over-engineer" our layouts. This just pushes up the cost. I was (and still am) intrigued by the simplicity of the Japanese interpretation of the T-Trak modular system and I can only recommend to keep it that simple. Just make sure that you use quality plywood, 15 mm so-called multiplex board or a marine grade does the perfectly. Have it cut to size either at your local home improvement store or at a carpenter´s. Building the "benchwork" is a matter of minutes, then.

 

Densha - before you get struck by analysis-paralysis, get a few lengths of track and build your first module!

[Densha]

@cteno4

I think I finally get what you mean!

 

@Martijn

I think also some clamps could be used for that. I am planning on ordering some to make building model buildings easier, and will look if they are useful for T-trak too when I finally made a module or two. It doesn't look great, but it's at least something, and it could be put at the back side.

 

@Sir Madog

After seeing Unitrack with unijoiners on my table they seems so firm that I think they will suffice for T-trak also.

 

 

I guess I'll take a look at the shop nearby then when I have time, and look around for those bolts, and ask and maybe buy some wood for a first module.

 

Also, I just noticed it's T-Trak and not T-track, maybe someone could change the topic title?

[cteno4]

Densha - before you get struck by analysis-paralysis, get a few lengths of track and build your first module!

 

i second this, helps to get things going! even if the first module ends up not working out, look at it as a practice run with very little investment. you can always scrape it all off and start over later if need be!

 

i also cut hunks of foam core (or you could use cardboard) to module sizes and spent a long time plopping buildings down on them and such to think about scene ideas and such. one way to plan ahead if you dont have modules built yet.

 

jeff

[Densha]

It was kinda hectic (and still is) so I didn't have any time yet to make a first module. I did make however a little design on the sizes. I think 10 cm is maybe too high, so I thought of making using the standard 7 cm. I can always use the bouts to get it to 10 cm to make it align with 10 cm high modules if I would find it too low after all.

I am planning on using MDF for the modules, what thickness do you recommend? I personally thought of 12 mm.

I'm also still not sure whether to make it 15 or 20 cm deep, but I'll probably go with 20 cm.

[Sir Madog]

Densha,

 

I don´t where you buy your Unitrack, but I found that S 64 lengths are much easier to get than the S 62 bits. A length of S 248 track plus one S 64 makes a total of 312 mm, minus 1 mm on each side makes a module length of 310 mm.

 

I still have a feeling that you are making things a little to complicated. The simple design I have adopted works nicely, if you use quality material for the "benchwork". I would definitively opt against using MDF, though. There is no advantage using that material, other than weight and cost, which can be neglected, given the little amount of square footage you need for a module. The disadvantage of MDF is that the joints may not be strong enough, as nails or screws don´t hold well.

[Densha]

I think I'm skipping the bouts for the moment, and stay with just the three plates, the first module is just an experiment anyway.

The reason I thought of using MDF was mainly because of the costs. I think I'll visit the shop today to ask what the prices will be. I have never personally used MDF, so I don't really know the differences. I have seen many people using it for their model railroad, but that weren't little modules like these which need to be strong of course. I should ask for triplex/multiplex for the other type of wood right?

 

I know there's a shop in a neighbouring town selling it, but I have never looked at their Unitrack assortment yet. So far I have seen the 62mm are sold in packs of 4 and 64mm in packs of 2, and that results in that the 62mm are cheaper. But that's trivial.

I mainly want to use 62mm tracks because I already have some of them and the variation sets also have them and I know that I can use all of the tracks in the V4 set. Doing so would be cheaper and easier. The modules do have to be 308mm long on the other side, but I don't think that's really a problem since I think the carpenter can cut them exactly as I want.

 

Edit: Fairly important I think, which thickness do you recommend for T-trak modules?

[westfalen]

Our Bible, The Australian T-TRAK Guidelines, recommends 6mm.

[Densha]

That's pretty thin if you ask me, I'm not planning on using anything to strengthen it, so I'll probably go with 1cm or so.

[IST]

That's pretty thin if you ask me, I'm not planning on using anything to strengthen it, so I'll probably go with 1cm or so.

 

It doesn't need. My T-trak modules are 6 mm thick also and its more than enough.

[Martijn Meerts]

I'd have to agree that you shouldn't use MDF. It's easy to work with, and cheaper, but regular nails and screws won't hold well. You could use glue and screws of course, or you'd have to use special MDF screws. Another problem is that when sawing/drilling MDF, the dust particles coming off it are very small and not the most healthy stuff.

 

9 or 12mm plywood (multiplex) should be a good option. 6mm is probably enough as well, but the thicker versions make it easier to mount height adjustment mechanisms should that be needed at some point.

 

As for the height, unless you want to build a module with a raving or some massive trestle bridge or something, you don't need a lot of height.

[Densha]

Okay, I decided to just go, and went and just bought the stuff to make a module. I decided to go for 15 cm width, 308 cm long, and 10 cm high. The reason why I thought having a higher module is better, is because the table I have and many other tables are too low to get a good view. And if it's not to my liking eventually I can decide to try to cut it off or just get rid of it.

Sadly enough the store made it almost 309 mm long and one of the 'legs' is not aligned completely correct, so again a mm was lost. Also the legs sort of bend to the outside, or in other words, they aren't in a 90 degrees angle, but in a ~95 degrees. And that results in more space between modules. I have used wood glue and nails, so the glue will probably get it a bit better with the clamps, but I don't get the other side like that.

I'm starting to think I'm actually not good in carpentry.

[cteno4]

Densha,

 

welcome to carpentry, notice try is in the word. its not something that comes to many folks in a total snap and it also depends a lot on your tools and materials. yes a good carpenter can make do with bad tools or materials, but it certainly makes things a lot harder. its also like most things like this just practice, practice, practice.

 

ive been doing carpentry now from probably like 46 years now (i started when i could swing a hammer as my dad had a big shop) and i still screw things up now and then! getting things cut to the mm is doable, but takes a decent saw and patience and time.

 

best thing to do is what you did, come up with the best thing you can on paper and then go buy the materials you think will work the best and build ONE. this will let you figure out what to do and not do in the process, what materials work, issues with your design etc. be prepared that you may have wasted $5 and an evening, but thats the investment in coming up with the right design. then go and build the second and usually thats it with maybe a little tweak, then you can try a larger number. believe me its worth spending a little time and money like this first and not jump whole in and try a bunch even if you have a lot of carpentry experience! carpentry is definitely something most anyone can learn with some guidance and patience and practice, so dont despair!

 

cutting lumber like this to nice square dimensions are almost impossible by hand unless you are well skilled and have the right pulls saws. you can do ok but your joint may be a bit ragded and need some sanding with a sanding block to get semi square. you can also patch the joint with putty to clean up any gaps. if not totally 90 degrees on your cuts you can do your nailing with the joint clamped at 90 so the nails and glue should then hold it at 90 and clean up any gaps with wood putty. there are some tricks you can try with a hand saw and larger blocks clamped across your cut line to help you keep the saw square and straight.

 

you really have to use a table saw really to cut this stuff if you want really square and straight cuts. hand ripping with a circular saw on smaller bits is tough and takes some time to learn how to do well and best if you use clamped guides for it. even then its never as clean as a table saw. unfortunately usually the lumber yard is only happy to do a very rough cut for you and never wants to get closer than a few mm for you. their saws can be of varying quality and adjustment (and the store person as well).

 

best to leave at least 1mm of extra on each end. getting things down to the mm is tough and if you get too tight its a problem. this gives you a little wiggle room as well if your leg pieces are not exactly 90 degrees. also gives you a tiny slot to shove a putty knife in to quickly pop two modules apart cleanly.

 

clamping while you glue and nail really helps. also you can drill small holes thru the top piece for your nails (just a tad smaller than the nail) and tap the nail thru till its just poking out the other side. this then lets you place it on top of the leg carefully and align it and just a little tap sets the like 0.5mm of nail head sticking out into the legs and will hold it in place, then drive the nails carefully.

 

do you have any friends with a shop in their garage with a table saw? or is there a school that you can sign up for a cheap night course in woodworking? that can be a great way to learn some more basics and practice and cut wood on a good saw. also great to have a good work area and the right tools. unfortunately with insurance many of those adult courses are either gone or expensive now.

 

another idea might be if you have your design down to go to a cabinetry shop and see if they would cut your boards for you if you wanted to make a few modules at once. to cut like 5 or 6 of those modules it would only take like 10 minutes. they might be nice and do it for like $10 or they may want an hour min and not worth it.

 

i think your next try might work better now, especially if you can find some where to cut your boards cleanly. for someone with a table saw its only minutes to make those cuts!

 

keep at it!

 

jeff

[Densha]

Thanks for the reply Jeff!

 

I didn't have any tool too get it in a 90 degrees angle, I did fix one before glueing and nailing, but it wasn't exact, hence it resulted into this. I think I'll try to look for something I can use for it, do you have any recommendation on that perhaps?

I think though that I should maybe include a little beam next time, so that it would get better aligned hopefully.

 

I do think of it like an investment like you say, but it's still frustrating that it didn't went as I wanted it to. I did get a little discount however, "because the boss also has model trains" said the assistant. Instead of €7,50 it costed me €6, with free nails.

 

Anyway, I'll wait a day or so until removing the clamps and just hope for the best. I'm going to paint the module anyway and try to finish it off as much as possible. A kind of stupid question: what kind of paint would you usually use in this case?

 

Unfortunately I don't have anyone who has a table saw, so far as I know.

[westfalen]

That's pretty thin if you ask me, I'm not planning on using anything to strengthen it, so I'll probably go with 1cm or so.

We've had nearly three years experience with T-TRAK now and have found it ok, most of our modules though, use 65x12mm pine as the frames with a 6mm top to bring the height to 71mm, close enough to the T-TRAK standard 70mm. From our N-TRAK days I guess we are in the habit of building sturdier modules than are needed with the smaller T-TRAK.

[cteno4]

Densha,

 

one trick to try and cut square with a hand saw is to clamp two hunks of something like what we call 2x4 (basically the framing wood for walls, like 50mm x 100mm in cross section) across your board on either side of the board right at your cut line. you need a couple of hunks a bit longer than your cut by like 100mm. then you can try to keep the saw blade as flush to the blocks as possible to keep it cutting straight and perpendicular to the board. you need to be careful not to cut into your blocks or your cut will wander. it will give you a better reference though to keep your cut square.

 

what tools do you have access to?

 

will the store do any cutting for you?

 

the first one or even two may be tosses but you can use the tops to try some scenery experiments on as well. you will find each time it gets better and better and easier and easier!

 

cheers

 

jeff

[Martijn Meerts]

The woodwork is the most annoying part usually (apart from ballasting perhaps :)) It takes a lot of time to get right, and even then it often doesn't end up being right after all.

 

Large bits I tend to have cut by the store I buy the wood, but even they don't always get the cuts right.

 

I know there are clamps which make it easy to hold pieces on a 90 degree angle. I don't have any myself, but I've been thinking about getting some for a while. I usually end up just measuring and the pre-drilling some holes before glueing and screwing everything in place.

[cteno4]

Corner clamps are quite fiddled to deal with. The simpler solution I have done when doing a lot of corner joints is to make an L shaped jig the length of the joint and like 10 cm on each leg. I clamp this on the inside of the joint with everything aligned, then you can drill, screw, nail w/o having to to hold while doing it.

 

Wood working does just take a lot of practice and a decent workshop and tools certainly makes it easier!

 

Jeff

[KenS]

Densha,

 

I think Jeff gave a good description of the issues, but I'll add my bit.

 

Getting a store to cut to size is very difficult, as most won't promise any kind of precision.  You are probably better off having them cut 3-5mm long, then marking the wood with a square (one of the essential tools) and using a wood file to trim the end and make it square.  It's a lot of work, but that's the tradeoff: time to do things by hand with care, or money for fancier time-saving tools (and lots of tools, since they tend to be specialized).

 

You can cut fairly square ends (with practice) with hand-held circular saw or a good saber saw and some clamps to hold the wood to a workbench (or table, if it's strong and you're very careful), but a miter saw is a really good investment. You don't need a fancy one, but you may want to get a larger one than you think you need.  Once you start making things, the bug can lead to making other things.

 

I'd suggest making yourself a workbench as a first step if you don't have one.  It doesn't have to be large, if you don't have room for a permanent one. Just 30cm x 1.5m and standing 20cm tall would be a large enough surface for many projects, and provide enough clearance at the edges.  Make the top from a flat board 2-4cm thick (or two sheets of clean plywood glued together) and overhang the edges 3-4cm, and attach it to a support structure that's solid and screwed to it from below so the top is clean.  There are ways to make a flatter top than using a board (boards are rarely as flat as you'd like),  but they generally require specialized tools. This gives you something to clamp to, pound and paint on, and otherwise abuse without damaging the furniture or floor.  If you have room, a larger freestanding workbench is much nicer of course.  Mine is store-bought, ~50cm x 2m, and I still find it small at times, but it's all I have room for.

 

Basic tools include a small metal square so you can mark and check corners for squareness, a good coarse wood file, drill, screwdrivers, and C-clamps, and some kind of saw (personally, I started with a hand-held circular saw, but I might get a miter saw first if I was starting over).  I also like having a couple of bar clamps when gluing box structures together. Always clamp things while gluing; I have a lot of different kinds of clamps...

 

On the subject of corner-clamps, I have a bunch of these, and swear by them. You can work without them, as Jeff noted, and they won't work for really small projects. And if you aren't careful, you can still make a non-square joint (the metal square comes in handy again for checking).  But I get much faster and accurate results with them than I did before I discovered them. I made eight 60cm x 120cm box structures in a weekend when constructing my layout, and I couldn't have done it without those clamps.

 

And yeah, expect to make mistakes.  I've been at this for decades and I still make mistakes (usually by being too impatient to carefully think things through before picking up a tool).