Tokyo Metro 10000 - Kato vs Greenmax

[KenS]

While we have had a bit of discussion about this on the Kato thread in New Releases, I thought it would make more sense to describe the model and constrast it with Greenmax's model of the 10000 separately. If the moderators don't agree, feel free to merge this back into the other thread.

 

So I've taken a bit more time to review my new Kato Tokyo Metro 10000 train model (10-866/867), and compare it with my existing Greenmax model (4128/4129) of the 10000. Visually, the differences are subtle. Mostly the Kato seems slightly superior, although my cabs have an odd blue streak next to both doors, which appears to be a paint smear. Both of these are fine models, and I don't regret owning either.

 

I was wrong about one thing in an earlier post.  Although Kato pre-applied the destination markers on the train, the ones on the cab are on snap-in plastic inserts and several additional sets are included, so you can (with quite a bit of work) snap one set out and replace it with another.  The signs on the side of the train do not appear to be replaceable. Greenmax provides stickers or decals for both (I haven't applied mine yet). The Kato trucks have slightly better detail, and the cab-top antennas are molded in black (Greenmax uses gray).  Kato's look better, but I don't know which is more prototypical.  Kato's color is slightly darker (and I like it more), but it's a very subtle difference.

 

Kato's rooftop detail on the two cars with dual pantographs is superior, with a raised conduit rather than a line molded into the roof.  The cars also have small diaphrarms on the ends, a detail the Greenmax model shows only in a raised plastic ridge around the door. Greenmax, however, did a better job on the door itself, with the door markings done as printing on the door, rather than molded lines as Kato did.

 

Kato uses their usual close couplers, where Greenmax provided Rapidos as the default (you can, of course, replace them).

 

Mechanically the Kato is the usual fine job. The Greenmax model runs fine, but a bit noisier.  The Kato takes their plug-in DCC decoders and interior lighting (which I'll cover in a second post).  The Greenmax makes provision for their interior lighting, which I haven't tried to install yet.

[KenS]

Now for the lights. The Kato model comes with head/tail lights.  The lightbar for this is a different design from ones I've seen before.  It's actually located under the interior floor, which is probably why it has such good electrical connectivity (no flicker at all on DC). The cab assembly has a plastic structure with clear and red light-pipes that brings the lighting up from under the floor to the signs and head/tail lights.  One effect of this is that when the headlights are off, the destination sign is also off.

 

The instruction sheet for the model specifically notes the new "version 2" interior lights, which is what I installed.  These went in very easily (much easier than the old ones thanks to a couple of innovations; I'm going to write these up in more detail on my website later in the week). The lighting is very even (and bright) over the length of the car. Except for the cab car, installing these was trivial.  In the cab, you need to snap off one segment, and getting the car back together in even more of a pain than Kato's older EMUs were.  You need to remove the black plastic cab assembly (which tends to stay in the car), reattach it to the floor, and then slide the whole thing into place (at a slight angle, but not a large one) until the headlight end is in place and the floor is correctly positioned.  And don't let the front apron detach from the floor (which it does quite easily). Only then can you snap the rest of the car together. This is similar to other EMUs I've done, but slightly different and requiring both care and precision.  I think I spent about an hour getting the first one back together; the second took only minutes once I knew what I was doing.

 

The interior lights work well on DC, coming on at about 1/3 setting on a Kato power pack, and reaching near full intensity at about 50% throttle. The photos show the lights on my Express loop of track on DC.

 

The train takes Kato's usual DCC decoders, and that install was the easiest I've ever done.  I did both cabs and the motor car in about ten minutes. Unfortunately my "express" loop is only working on DC right now (I thought I had the DCC wired back up, but apparently not). So I haven't actually run it except on a short length of test track to prove the decoders work. I should have that fixed tomorrow.

 

I'm really liking the version 2 lighting kits. And overall, I really like the Kato 10000 model. They've really put their best foot forward here.

[The_Ghan]

... Mostly the Kato seems slightly superior, although my cabs have an odd blue streak next to both doors, which appears to be a paint smear...

 

KenS,

 

My order is in transit, but looking at your Kato image I think you're referring to the short vertical bar of blue beside the doors.  This isn't a smear or fault.  One of my favourite resources for Tokyo trains is funini.com. You can see photos of the cab cars with the blue vertical bars beside the doors here.  Is that what you're referring to?  There are also plenty of photos on the net with no blue beside the doors.  I don't know when or why the blue was applied, but I've sent an email to a Japanese railfan in Tokyo to try and find out.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[The_Ghan]

KenS,

 

Thanks for the excellent comparison review of these models.  I don't own any Greenmax yet and ALMOST bought one of these just as Kato announced theirs.  Your review is reassuring me that I've made the right choice to buy the Kato version of the 10000 series.  For me, being DCC fu-ren-du-ri was also important.  I can't wait to see mine.

 

On a general note, these types of reviews are my favourite topic here at JNS.  As manufacturers overlap their product lines I see more people asking whether to go Kato / Tomix / MicroAce ... or other.  I for one am tossing up between the Tomix and MicroAce versions of the Yufuin Kiha 71.  Perhaps someone might do a review of them.

 

Thanks again mate!  A great start to the posts of 2012.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[keitaro]

... Mostly the Kato seems slightly superior, although my cabs have an odd blue streak next to both doors, which appears to be a paint smear...

 

KenS,

 

My order is in transit, but looking at your Kato image I think you're referring to the short vertical bar of blue beside the doors.  This isn't a smear or fault.  One of my favourite resources for Tokyo trains is funini.com. You can see photos of the cab cars with the blue vertical bars beside the doors here.  Is that what you're referring to?  There are also plenty of photos on the net with no blue beside the doors.  I don't know when or why the blue was applied, but I've sent an email to a Japanese railfan in Tokyo to try and find out.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

 

i may be wrong but the blue smear had something to do with 8 car set change and the fact that some of the models bear actual differences to what was correct at the time.

 

The cooler for example is smaller on the Kato model as on the newer actual 10000 metros. The older had bigger.

 

I'll see if i can dig up some thing.

[keitaro]

well i was wrong sorta.

 

the line is being applied to all rolling stock.

It is a change made to the sets due to the automatic gates

 

as per my answer on mixi.

 

This line allows the stopping position,

under operation with TASC:Train Automatic Stop-position Controller,

at the stations with platform screen doors.

 

i was correct however that new built sets have a smaller cooler unit than the older.

 

So the Greenamx which btw is a 2 year old set now was correct at time of making.

 

I am interested to see how much better the greenmax would have been if it were not so old as the newer greenmax models do have better molding detail than ones from previous years my kintetsu models are much superior to the older kintetsu stock they have done previous years

[Takahama Trainwatcher]

This little discussion might need to be updated shortly with Kato's release coming soon. I'm curious as to the difference between 10-866 and 10-1259 (at loco1hobby it is indicated that the formation is different http://www.loco1hobby.net/en/emu-private-railway-and-subway/887-kato-10-1259.html ). Does anyone have further information about this, and what Kato's philosophy is in releasing the same train with a newer number relatively soon after their previous release of it?

[railsquid]

The main difference I can see, apart from the different numbering, is that the new model comes in three different sets (4+4+2) whereas the old one is 6+4.

[katoftw]

Does anyone have further information about this, and what Kato's philosophy is in releasing the same train with a newer number relatively soon after their previous release of it?

Marketing a new product means modellers will buy the newer product.  It is not just a Kato thing.  They all do it.  Sometimes the real life prototype has minor changes, and the model manufacturer will follow suit with a slight update.  Most likely still 98% the same as the old product.

[cteno4]

There are those that must collect them all! If it's just rerunning with a new number and a couple of details then easy to tap that market.

 

Jeff

[nartak]

Here is some reason been shared during past sales meeting.

1. KATO will be releasing Tokyu 5050-4000 and plan to line-up other trainset which is on same track (Fukutoshin Line, etc) to make some more up-sell.

2. TM10000 is now will be a part of KATO's "Best Selection" product, which is KATO's mainstream product and will continue periodical re-run.  So the new packaging (4+4+2) is now aligning with Best Selection merchandising.

3. Minor brushup with new road number and some updated decal like stroller decal to match with current mode of operation.

[Guest keio6000]

Hello Nartak,

 

thanks for sharing! 

 

1.  presumably this means eidan 7000 series in both fukutoshin and yurakucho colors.  yurakucho version was not a big seller for microace, but fukutoshin line quickly became rare and expensive.  tokyu 5050-4000 is a nice train and i'm sure kato will do a nice job.

2.  Tokyo Metro 10000 - kato's version is absolutely gorgeous, as are all their subway offerings.  4+4+2 means those paper box packaging?  ugh.  glad i  got mine in a folio case.

[nartak]

Hello Nartak,

 

thanks for sharing! 

 

1.  presumably this means eidan 7000 series in both fukutoshin and yurakucho colors.  yurakucho version was not a big seller for microace, but fukutoshin line quickly became rare and expensive.  tokyu 5050-4000 is a nice train and i'm sure kato will do a nice job.

2.  Tokyo Metro 10000 - kato's version is absolutely gorgeous, as are all their subway offerings.  4+4+2 means those paper box packaging?  ugh.  glad i  got mine in a folio case.

 

Dear Keio6000-san,

 

1. I already checked prototype of Tokyu 5050-4000 but it is really nice one with shiny painting.

 

2. Add-on set A (10-1260) will comes with 10 car bookcase to store whole 10cars.  Others (10-1259/1261) comes with paper package.

[railsquid]

2.  Tokyo Metro 10000 - kato's version is absolutely gorgeous, as are all their subway offerings.  4+4+2 means those paper box packaging?  ugh.  glad i  got mine in a folio case.

 

Personally I like the book/folio cases, but I like even more having trains out on the track, which in my case (hah) means at most 4 cars in a consist. So prefer to buy 4-car offerings at under 10,000 yen rather than 6-car offerings at around 13,000 yen with a nice case to store the two extra cars I'll never use. But hey, I live in Japan (where most of Kato's target market is) so who am I to complain? ;)

[katoftw]

kato offers everything in book/folio case in some form or option provided.  so i dont really understand keio6000's statement.  if the basic comes win the paper/polystyrine option, then the add on will be in a book/folio.

 

those books/folios are expensive to manufacture over the paper/polystyrine options, so if a modeller is serious and wants to go larger than the 3 or 4 car basic sets, then he/she gets a book/folio when they go for the add ons.

[Takahama Trainwatcher]

Thank you all for your thoughts on that. Nartak's insight gives food for thought: if Kato's 10000 series first release (10-866/10-867) is unlikely to be produced again, and you want more than one of these trains (with different running numbers) you would have needed to buy it quickly. They seem rare now.

 

I'm wondering, then, if the 16000 series model will have the same fate. The most recent version (10-877/10-878 http://www.katomodels.com/n/metro_16000kei_c/) has the 6+4 sets. Will Kato re-release it in the 4+4+2 format? Curiously, their published schedule has only the 6 car "basic" set identified for future production (http://www.katomodels.com/distribution/schedule.shtml), not the 4 car add-on.

 

And then, how about the E259? Will the 6-car set 10-821 (http://www.katomodels.com/n/e259kei/) ever see the light of day again for those longing for a pair of these trains?

 

The "up-sell" philosophy.... I can feel it. I've been focussed on JR East trains. I got tempted by the 6000 series Chiyoda line (http://www.katomodels.com/n/metro_6000_chiyoda/) due to its relationship to the Joban line. Having one metro train is the thin edge of the wedge. It makes me want more.... but I feel I'll stick to Tokyo Metro trains only (so the 10000 and 16000 models tempt me). But, then, Kato announce Tokyu trains that share the tracks with 10000 series (as Nartak noted), so I feel the pull. Alas, I have neither the money nor the space for all this!

[Slobo]

Just received the Kato 4-car basic set (10-1259) and mine did not come with Priority Seating or WOMEN ONLY window stickers. Was this an oversight or are these not included with this particular Kato product? 

[Suica]

Just received the Kato 4-car basic set (10-1259) and mine did not come with Priority Seating or WOMEN ONLY window stickers. Was this an oversight or are these not included with this particular Kato product? 

They're probably in the 4-car add-on set (10-1260), as that one comes in the Kato book case and with the instruction booklet.

[katoftw]

28-215