makeup of shorter japan trains?

[worldrailboy]

not sure if subject line was the best one I could think of right now but basically I was wondering if there were any locomotive hauled trains that would still look somewhat prototypical but not be several many wagons long?

I mean like in term of not picking an Tomix EF66 and make it look silly with only two container flatcars all the times

I think I might like the length at 1-7 wagons or so but this of course is going to depend on whether its 2-axle and/or bogie wagons

 

I don't think I'm partial to any of the three major brands for locomotives

 

don't have any specific japan railway geography in mind at all btw :)

[Nick_Burman]

I've seen a picture of a real container train made up of an EF-class electric hauling just one container flat loaded with one 40' ISO container.

 

You can't get get any shorter than that...

 

 

Cheers NB

[Krackel Hopper]

Short, loco-hauled trains.. the DE10 locomotive instantly comes to mind.

 

Nostalgic View Train (4 coach + loco)

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10146104

 

Series 485 `Sylpheed`(3 cars + loco)

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10074529

 

WAMU80000 (loco +2 boxcars)

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10141302

 

If you wanted to do steam, there are all sorts of 2-axle freight cars to be had.

[bill937ca]

You do see short trains, particularly on hilly routes. I believe most freights are 20-30 cars long.  These trains must fill into slots between frequent passenger trains.

 

 

 

 

[worldrailboy]

krackel - funny that someone would quickly mention the DE10 as I had been looking exactly at that especially when I remembered someone posting a few photos of the DE10 in that blue/white strip colour for a particular passenger consist

 

I always did wonder about its C-B trucks which isn't something I've ever seen.

on the other hand I do know of the EMD FL9 in usa. B-1A1 instead of typical B-B trucks due to the weight of the steam generator in rear

 

as for steam I don't want to be sounding clueless but could it be any tank or smaller tender locomotive or is there something to know about the classes? at least I assume that whether it has smoke deflectors didn't make or not make it a freight locomotive on slower lines tho or did it? I only know a little bit about this in regarding to german steam locomotives alone so (I actually have one magazine that had photo of a DR tank locomotive with small boiler-attached deflectors even although the thing in question had very low wheels and probably couldn't really go fast at all! the irony)

 

bill thanks for these videos, when I started watching the first clip I thought that seem like a normal freight train till the EH200 in question showed up and then I had to rewind the clip back to there to actually believe that it was only just four wagons alone for such a massive locomotive

maybe I'll have to think about the Kato EH200 in my list of locomotives to consider after all

 

while still on the topic how about the microace A2062 or A3400? I only started thinking about the ED42 because of the siderods and that I always could leave the other two unpowered ones on the engine shed track.

but then if they were not exactly known to show up on short trains then thats ok I got many other to choose from yet ;-)

[Nick_Burman]

The problem about the ED42s is that they were special locos for a very specific task - namely raising and lowering trains on the rack-fitted Usui Pass section. They never ventured outside the Yokokawa-Karuizawa section and always operated in multiple. No question about these locos being fascinating to watch in operation, however they look best bracketing (one loco in front and three at the back) a long Tokyo-Nagano express...

 

If you want a short steam train you couldn't do better that sourcing a C11, C12, C56, 8620 or 9600 and half-a-dozen or so freight cars to go behind. Then you'll have the archetypal branchline/secondary line wayfreight.

 

Cheers NB

[The_Ghan]

OFF TOPIC: My wife just saw the word "makeup" and piped up "What's that about? What's that about? .... sheesh ... women!

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[marknewton]

I always did wonder about its C-B trucks which isn't something I've ever seen.

 

According to Japanese technical literature, the DE10s are A-A-A-B - the three axles on the larger truck are independently driven. But that's a minor quibble, I reckon they're a very interesting loco either way you describe them. 

 

as for steam I don't want to be sounding clueless but could it be any tank or smaller tender locomotive or is there something to know about the classes? at least I assume that whether it has smoke deflectors didn't make or not make it a freight locomotive on slower lines tho or did it? I only know a little bit about this in regarding to german steam locomotives alone so (I actually have one magazine that had photo of a DR tank locomotive with small boiler-attached deflectors even although the thing in question had very low wheels and probably couldn't really go fast at all! the irony)

 

Fitting smoke deflectors isn't related to how fast a steam loco could run, or whether it was in freight or passenger service. I don't know how much you know about steam loco design and development, so I apologise in advance if I get a bit technical. I could go on endlessly about steam loco smokebox/front-end design, having spent most of my career working on and in them, but I'll try to keep it simple. Here's a link to a wiki page, which is essentially correct about the basics of smokebox/front-end design:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blastpipe

 

Older locos had simple, single-orifice blastpipes located high in the smokebox. They relied on a small, high velocity jet of exhaust steam from the cylinders to create a vacuum in the smokebox, thereby creating draft in the firebox. This meant that the exhaust steam and combustion gasses would leave the top of the funnel with some pressure, so the smoke and steam tended to be projected up and well clear of the loco when working steam. The disadvantage was that it lead to excessive back pressure in the cylinders. It's the exhaust leaving the blastpipe and funnel under pressure that makes a steam loco go "chuff, chuff".

 

Modern locos have low, multiple-orifice blastpipes, and the drafting is reliant on a large volume of exhaust steam at a low pressure. This leads to the smoke and steam trailing back into the cab and obscuring visibility for the crew. This problem is exacerbated by the tendency for a partial vacuum to be formed at the front of the loco by the flat front of the smokebox.

 

Smoke deflectors are perhaps mis-named, because they are intended to prevent the partial vacuum from forming, and to channel the exhaust up and over the engine by directing the airflow upwards. They're assisted by the characteristic upward-sloping apron plate that covers the front of the frames and cylinders on many deflector-fitted engines.

 

Hope this helps! 

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

[westfalen]

I caught this DD51 heading north past Sako (just north of Nagoya) with three tank cars in tow.

[worldrailboy]

nick hmm now I know more about the ED42, I can see why the locomotive set is sold as four but not all powered :)

 

I'll have to look up more about this particular operation section now that you had me interested. four extra locomotives on a single train for a short distance hmmm

 

the C11 certainly looked like something I would had liked to try get, not too big but not looking like a silly little 0-4-0T trying to run on the mainline at same time

 

the_ghan seriously did she think train modellers were ACTUALLY talking about bathroom items??? haha

 

mark thats an interesting explanation, I'll have to read more later on when I have extra time for that ;-)

 

westfalen these photos reminds me of something I wasn't sure about asking at first [from watching the clips] before but are the two red plates on tail for when a brake van/cab isn't present? probably not hard to make a small red dab something to put on the N scale wagons in that case

[westfalen]

westfalen these photos reminds me of something I wasn't sure about asking at first [from watching the clips] before but are the two red plates on tail for when a brake van/cab isn't present? probably not hard to make a small red dab something to put on the N scale wagons in that case

Some freight cars come with them for you to add on, some Kato and Tomix container cars I bought recently each came with a red plastic sprue of them.

[worldrailboy]

hmm so I did a bit of looking online after a moment of figuring out a few full locomotive names in japan and this one photo

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/ファイル:JNR_C11_289_on_Tadami_line_19731103_001.jpg

pretty much looks like what I was thinking of in term of steam powered trains, a C11 with mixed freights rolling along on a simple bridge far from any urban areas

 

mm well this has been an interesting thread I started, I'll have to check out some more selections at the few english store sites and decide on a rough wish list :)

[KenS]

I don't know much about the steam era, or even JNR (pre-1987) freight before general freight service largely stopped.  But modern freights can be quite short, despite the increased focus on unit trains.  I think a half-dozen cars would look fine.  You can find real-world examples that short, and in any case "selective compression" is a common technique for making things fit a smaller space (i.e., six cars standing in for a dozen). Wikipedia has a couple of online images of short trains and I've seen others:

 

This one's in Tokyo, on a mostly-freight cutoff that runs between the Joban and Sobu lines, six container flats with two tank containers each behind an EF65 (I think, might be an EF64):

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:JRE-Shinkin-Line-Nakagawa.jpg

 

Here's a ten-car limestone train:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:0903090079_ube_limestones_ft.jpg

 

Five car container train behind a DE10:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Shinminato-line-2002-05-14.jpg

 

Short container train behind EF210:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:JRF_seriesEF210_Yumesaki.jpg

 

You can also find things on Flickr although finding the right keywords to search on can be problematic ("Tokyo Freight" works well):

 

Five container flats behind an EH500:

 

Another short EF65 container train:

 

Most modern trains, other than maintenance-of-way, will be unit trains of one type of car, but that's not absolute. I couldn't find examples in a brief search, but I'm sure I've seen photos of some mixed trains from recent years.

 

For locomotives, on a modern train a DE10 or perhaps a DD51 (in non-electrified areas, and sometimes elsewhere) or older electric locos (e.g., EF64, EF65) would look appropriate on a short freight, but more modern locos (e.g., EF210 in particular) are also used. You can probably find examples of short trains behind any JR Freight locomotive.

[worldrailboy]

I was thinking about a DE10 or few but could probably think about wanting a DD51 with the matching euroliner consist too

http://pic.brilliant.dnsalias.com/joyfull6/Dscn0376.jpg

the dome-roof wagons already interest me so :-)

 

that reminds me, I was planning to buy at least two different KIHA sets to fill out the lighter rails but hmm what was with the DE10's hauling some of them under power from time to time? I'm sure I'm missing something when I can't figure out why a DE10 is leading a single KIHA railbus and both units are under power

 

still thinking about if it'll fit my layout parameters yet but does anyone sell a 485 Nodoka? (I guess after all a romancecar 3000 series is a bit too long for me prototypically heh)

 

on a not-n-scale topic this I have had bookmarked for a while now and it humors me for some reason

http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/kiha58657/63473623.html

thats QUITE some smoke especially when it does appear that the rearmost railbus is under full power too if you noticed the particular smoke stream coming from its rooftop exhaust port

[Nick_Burman]

I was thinking about a DE10 or few but could probably think about wanting a DD51 with the matching euroliner consist too

http://pic.brilliant.dnsalias.com/joyfull6/Dscn0376.jpg

the dome-roof wagons already interest me so :-)

 

that reminds me, I was planning to buy at least two different KIHA sets to fill out the lighter rails but hmm what was with the DE10's hauling some of them under power from time to time? I'm sure I'm missing something when I can't figure out why a DE10 is leading a single KIHA railbus and both units are under power

 

still thinking about if it'll fit my layout parameters yet but does anyone sell a 485 Nodoka? (I guess after all a romancecar 3000 series is a bit too long for me prototypically heh)

 

on a not-n-scale topic this I have had bookmarked for a while now and it humors me for some reason

http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/kiha58657/63473623.html

thats QUITE some smoke especially when it does appear that the rearmost railbus is under full power too if you noticed the particular smoke stream coming from its rooftop exhaust port

 

A KiHa being towed by a diesel probably means that the railcar broke down and the DE has been sent to rescue it. The engine on the railcar is kept on to provide power for lighting, A/C, etc...

 

The last picture seems to show a train on its way to be scrapped. That KiHa looks like as if it was on its last legs...and definitively it isn't under power, it's just that (very) sick DE which makes it look as if it were...

 

 

Cheers NB

[worldrailboy]

hmm thanks nick, the breakdown makes more sense now. I assume that in some cases only the hydraulic transmission itself failed so it was then left decoupled [or ?] for the tow while the still-working engine kept the generator running. am I correct?

 

I guess for a DCC layout that could add some extra operation interest with a KIHA stopped somewhere till a spare DE10 could be pressed to pick it up

[marknewton]

are the two red plates on tail for when a brake van/cab isn't present?

 

Yes, they indicate the end of the train when running without a brakevan, or when normally self-propelled vehicles are being hauled dead, and no marker lights are displayed. It's a bit practice found on many railways where there was a British influence in the early days. We use them here in NSW for the same purpose, where they're known as "tail discs".

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

[marknewton]

hmm thanks nick, the breakdown makes more sense now. I assume that in some cases only the hydraulic transmission itself failed so it was then left decoupled [or ?] for the tow while the still-working engine kept the generator running. am I correct?

 

Depends on the design of the transmission, and I admit I'm not sure of how the JNR cars are configured. Modern practice is to have a seperate traction engine/s and an auxilliary engine to power lights, AC, etc. On our DMUs, there is a "neutral" position on the master controller, which can be used for short distance loco-hauled moves. But for longer distances, the cardan shaft between the torque converter and the final drive is removed. Which is an absolute bastard of a job...

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

[marknewton]

...a C11 with mixed freights rolling along on a simple bridge far from any urban areas...

 

You'll like this, I reckon:

 

http://yoshiokasyd.web.fc2.com/Annexes/Retro_Photos/Honsyuu/tadami/index.htm

 

The rest of the site is worth a look, too.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

[westfalen]

are the two red plates on tail for when a brake van/cab isn't present?

 

Yes, they indicate the end of the train when running without a brakevan, or when normally self-propelled vehicles are being hauled dead, and no marker lights are displayed. It's a bit practice found on many railways where there was a British influence in the early days. We use them here in NSW for the same purpose, where they're known as "tail discs".

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

I wonder what the actual rules are. On my recent visit to Japan I noticed trains with only one disc or none at all. I'm thinking in might depend on the type of train, a shunt train (local pickup freight), for example might not be required to have discs and a single disc might identify a specific type of train. At home it might just mean the discs fell off.

[Nick_Burman]

hmm thanks nick, the breakdown makes more sense now. I assume that in some cases only the hydraulic transmission itself failed so it was then left decoupled [or ?] for the tow while the still-working engine kept the generator running. am I correct?

 

I guess for a DCC layout that could add some extra operation interest with a KIHA stopped somewhere till a spare DE10 could be pressed to pick it up

 

As Mark said, just the case of putting the controller out of gear, coupling up and away you go. Since the tow wouldn't be very long (first to the next station to transfer passengers to another vehicle, then to the nearest maintenance facility) there would be no need to "field strip" the cardan shaft before moving the train. That is, unless the gearbox seized up solid - then, mate, call the nearest bus company...

 

Cheers NB

[westfalen]

How often do trains break down in Japan though? In nine visits and many thousands of kilometers travelled I've never seen it happen.

[Nick_Burman]

How often do trains break down in Japan though? In nine visits and many thousands of kilometers travelled I've never seen it happen.

 

Anything created and mantained by human beings will end up giving trouble one moment or another... Admittedly, given the strictness the Japanese enforce on maintenance breakdowns are few and far between. However they do happen, with the difference that when they happen they end up on newspaper headlines... Even the Shinkansen with its immense reliability has been prone to (OK, infrequent) glitches. If you have travelled thousands of km without ever being inconvenienced by a hiccup it was because you never had the luck (for Japan...) of being in the wrong place at the wrong time...

 

Cheers NB

[westfalen]

How often do trains break down in Japan though? In nine visits and many thousands of kilometers travelled I've never seen it happen.

 

Anything created and mantained by human beings will end up giving trouble one moment or another... Admittedly, given the strictness the Japanese enforce on maintenance breakdowns are few and far between. However they do happen, with the difference that when they happen they end up on newspaper headlines... Even the Shinkansen with its immense reliability has been prone to (OK, infrequent) glitches. If you have travelled thousands of km without ever being inconvenienced by a hiccup it was because you never had the luck (for Japan...) of being in the wrong place at the wrong time...

 

Cheers NB

Just my point, you'd pretty much have to live there and spend all your life riding trains to have a fair chance of seeing a train break down in service and need towing so how often is too much to realistically depict it on a layout?

[spacecadet]

Just my point, you'd pretty much have to live there and spend all your life riding trains to have a fair chance of seeing a train break down in service and need towing so how often is too much to realistically depict it on a layout?

 

Just to throw in my 2 cents, I've visited Japan probably 15 times now and I was stuck behind a broken down train on the Joban line once, which caused the entire line to have to terminate at Toride.  It was a mess.  My in-laws had to drive like 20 miles to come pick us up at Toride, and of course about a million other people were doing the same thing so it was complete chaos.  We actually had to walk about a half mile in the pouring rain just to get to the car, because they couldn't get any closer to the station even temporarily.

 

I was saying the same thing to my wife, about what kind of luck I must have that on my 7th or 8th trip to Japan (by that time) I'd of course get stuck in a situation that probably never happens, and she said it happens more often than you'd think (she lived there for 29 years before moving to the US).  I'm sure it doesn't happen as often as on, say, the Long Island Rail Road, but it apparently does happen often enough that it's not completely unexpected for someone who rides the trains there regularly.

 

If you watch the message boards in some stations, you'll always see service disruptions somewhere, usually at multiple points around the Tokyo area, often caused by disabled trains.  I don't think it's particularly rare, just maybe a little less common than elsewhere.

 

But yeah, the situation I was caught in did make newspaper headlines.  (But then again, it makes newspaper headlines when similar things happen on the LIRR and all the trains have to terminate at Jamaica, even though that seems to happen on the LIRR about once a week.)