Digitrax AR1 issue

[Spaceman Spiff]

Hi, I have three AR1's controlling three separate reverse loops.  With 2 of the loops the trains go thru with no issue. On one of the loops the trains go thru the initial part of the loop with no issue but when leaving the loop it stalls, command station beeps and then sometimes the train starts to move, sometimes not. It also doesn't seem to make a difference which side of the loop the train enters ie: entering no issue & exitting issues. I have adjusted the TTC (both clock wise and counter clock wise) and doesn't seem to make a difference. I also swapped the AR1 with another one and the problem continues.  Any ideas?

 

 

Spiff

[inobu]

Your fault isolation steps are on par.

 

If you swapped out the AR1's and the problem remained then the issue has to be a metallic shorting issue. "wiring or track".

 

I wonder if "Kermit" is causing the problem?

 

Inobu  

 

"frog power on with non-power routing"

[Spaceman Spiff]

Its weird because it was working fine until now and nothing has changed.

 

Spiff

[The_Ghan]

Email Digitrax Support and see what they say.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[KenS]

Have you adjusted the trip current?  Per the instructions, your symptons sound like "trip current set too high".

 

It can be set to trip as high as 8 amps, and if your command station is a 5 Amp station, you'll never get to 8, and the command station breaker will trip, which is probably what is happening when it beeps.

[The_Ghan]

KenS,

 

Ah, but Space said he still has the problem when he swaps the AR1 with another on his layout.  Presumably, the problem is staying in the one reversing loop and not moving with the AR1.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[inobu]

Ghan is stating, Space did, the basic fault isolation maneuver.

 

Move the component and see if the trouble follows. If he moved the AR from one location to another and the trouble did not follow (and that AR worked in the new location) then the problems was left behind at the loop. Now you need to focus on that loop.  

 

Space, you have to get into the right mindset to find the problem. You cannot think that "nothing changed" as something did that's why it stop working. You just have to find it.  

 

I don't know what track you are using or switch #4, #6 or wye but you have two switches in the circuit and both can flip the rail polarity.

 

Switch 1 - AR1

Switch 2 - #4, #6 or wye.

 

I made the "Kermit" pun "frog" if the number #4 is used as it has power options to route power through the frog or not. Kato.

 

The problem has to be either a counter metallic flip flop. Meaning the switch flips it in phase and then the AR flips it out of phase again or a poor connection/broken wire not  allowing enough current flow to operate the AR logic.  

 

I would rewire it and see.

 

Inobu

[KenS]

Good point, I'd missed that, and it makes track/wiring the likely culprint.

 

Another possible cause is high resistance in the wiring/track.  If the feeder is far from the end of the loop where the problem occurs and there are bad Unijoiners or similar in between (or if the feeder itself has a loose connection or very long run of small wire), there could be enough resistance in the track/feeder to prevent the sudden surge that triggers the AR's circuit breaker.  That seems rather unlikely, but it's the next thing I'd look for.  If you have an ohmmeter, take the train off the track and remove the power pack, then check resistance from the power pack lead to different places on the track (and repeat for the other rail).  Resistance more than 2-5 ohms is a red flag. I try to keep mine under 3, and have to throw away unijoiners periodically to do so (they become loose with repeated use, and contact area drops so resistance goes up; they likely also get dirty).

 

Try cleaning the track/wheels as well (isopropyl alcohol, rubbing alcohol, on a cotton pad or swab works, just don't get the undiluted stuff on painted plastic).

[The_Ghan]

My next suggestion would be to swap out the points on the reversing loop.  Inobu suggested that the fault might lie there.  Parts can and do become faulty with time.  I've had a Tomix N-PR-541(F) arrive DOA.  After pulling it apart I discovered the tiniest of manufacturing faults on the little circuit board was causing a short across the points.  So, I'd suggest swapping the part out first to see if the problem goes away.  If so, examine the part carefully to locate the cause of the problem.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[Spaceman Spiff]

Thanks for the replies. There are no points or switches involved.

I will try to clean the track and recheck all the soldered sections. It's weird that the train will run thru numerous times with no issues then it will stall out on another run. 

 

 

Spiff

[inobu]

So it is an intermittent problem? that changes the troubling criteria but wait, No point/switch?

 

How does the main rail loop back to its self without a switch or wye?  A train has to enter A side and exit B side which requires a rail switching component.

 

Inobu

[Spaceman Spiff]

Hi inobu, my layout is a one line mainline. It runs continuously for several feet and eventually backs onto to itself with two separate reverse loops so no points are involved.

 

Spiff

[inobu]

How are loops accomplished without points?

 

This is what I know as a loop how is it done without a switch/point. 

 

 

I think I remember you having a diagram of a design that you wanted but I though it needed points also.

 

I'm lost .....

 

Inobu

[inobu]

Spiff I checked out your video and it does not look like you have a reversing loop. There are helix's but no reversing loop like the image I posted unless its not in the video.

 

I got a feeling that your problem is in the crossovers.

 

The fault is occurring based on the position of the crossovers hence the intermittent issue.

 

Inobu

 

 

 

[Guest Closed Account 1]

I use 0.010 X 0.020" styrene strips inside the Kato Insulated UniJoiners to insure good isolation and I have used up to 0.030 X 0.060" strips to fill the potholes between flex track sections. With the Kato Insulated UniJoiners no glue is needed. With the bigger gaps thin CA is a must. Sand the spilled glue off the rails and the job is complete.

 

N scale rails are a little more than 0.020" wide so be careful not to get anything more than 0.030"wide.

[inobu]

 

The is a better example of a reversing loop.

 

Are you using the cross over as your switch into a reversing loop like this?

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Hi, sadly I need to go to out of town for a couple days so I am unable to trouble shoot until I get back.

 

I will try to draw out a track plan and scan it so you can see it.

 

Here are two you tube links of what the trains are doing. The insulated joiners separating the reverse loop are located by the red thumb tacks.

 

 

 

 

 

As you can when the train can enter/exit via the bridge end of the loop fine but on the other side of the loop it has issues. I wonder if as KenS mentioned my command station doesn't have enough amperage or if a PM42 would be better.

 

 

 

Spiff

[KenS]

It's not so much the command station not having enought amperage, as even a 2-3 Amp Zephyr is huge compared to the needs of one train, as it is the AR1's sensitivity being set wrong relative to the command station's maximum amperage during a short.

 

The video really confuses me.  Any chance there is a section of track shorter than the train that's controlled by the AR1, bracketed by two normal sections that are opposite each other?  That could cause a short as the train bridges both ends and the AR can't make it right.  Not sure why it would ever clear in that case, just thinking.

 

A simple track plan showing what's wired to the AR and what isn't would help.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Hi KenS, the section of track that has been isolated is longer than any train that would occupy the section.

 

I sure wish I could draw out track diagrams like inubo. :)

 

My track is similar to the second picture that inubo posted. If you look at his loop to left of the crossover it's essentially what I have. My track is isolated about 1 foot from the switch (by the bridge) then runs for 6 feet or so where it is isolated again on the back side of the bridge. That isolated section is about 2 1/2 feet from the crossover.

 

inubo: what program are you using to make your track layouts?

 

 

Spiff

[inobu]

Those are images that I found on line real quick but I use Anyrail its the most comprehensive for me. 

 

You can download the trial version as it allows you to place 50 pieces of track which is enough for sectional drawings.

 

I agree with Kens It appears to be an imbalance somewhere.

 

Possible issues are voltage drop caused by lighted cars exceeding voltage threshold for the decoders. Hence the reset/restart.

 

Lighted car with bogies causing power to jump the isolators inducing AR-1 flip flopping. 

 

If this only happens with JR trains then the latter may be the case.

 

Inobu

[Spaceman Spiff]

Thanks for the program info inubo.  It's happening all of my trains not just the lit up ones.

 

Spiff

[inobu]

Here is the tell all test.

 

Disconnect all the cars except for the motor car.

 

If the single motor car makes it around then the basic operation works and its a load issue. If it fails then it has to be a metallic issue. (Remember the cross overs are connected)  

 

 

If the motor makes it no problem, then add cars one by one.

 

When you find the breaking point/car the answer will lie there.

 

The bogies may be jumping power across the isolators. Remember the lighted cars have decoders/current draw.

 

Inobu

[The_Ghan]

Spiff,

 

A pencil and paper drawing would be good, or even a photo from top down with a note as to where you've isolated the track.  I was going to ask about other trains but you've covered that.  Running just the motor car on its own is a good idea.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[inobu]

I think there are two issues.

 

The first issue may be coming from the crossovers. The crossovers are basically 2 switches in parallel and can flip polarity on a loop just like a normal switch (#4,6 or wye) because it sits so far away you may not see it in the equation. It hard to tell without a wiring diagram.

 

The second issues is the bogies.

 

Watch the video and you will see the train shuts down as each bogie passes over the red tack marker. The AR flips, the power restores the motor car pulls and the next bogie trips it again.

 

The head car with the decoder enter the zone and it trips hard. (Video)

 

The power is cut. (watch the light go out)

 

The inertia of the trains keeps it rolling and then it stops.

 

The power resets and the motor car pulls until the next bogie enters the zone (red marker) (power trips)

and the cycle starts over.

 

Gotta isolate the motor car and see if the problem clears with only one car. I think this is the same issue they had with the occupancy detection.

 

Inobu

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest Closed Account 1]

I sure wish I could draw out track diagrams

 

I use rail modeler and then export the image to photoshop. Then I add black squares to indicate the isolations. In rail modeler you can also color the tracks.

 

Not sure if you can export with the trial version.

 

Program is worth the $40.