Poor manufacturing - MA and Tomix

[The_Ghan]

I've had two poorly manufactured trains delivered in the last fortnight.

 

The first is a MA Tokyo Metro Series 05 - A5012 that I bought on eBay.  It appears to be brand new, looks brand new, smells brand new, but when I opened it the shell of the motor car had been pushed too far down over the chassis.  It was easy to remove, but has caused the shell to slightly deform so that it won't grip the clips on the chassis.  I've had a large bulldog clip on it (applied from the roof side) for a week and it appears to be returning to normal shape.

 

The second is a Tomix 92424 Series 373 that was on special the other week at HS.  The bogey on the cab end of the motorised cab car was not attached.  It simply was not clipped in at all.  I easily attached the bogey.

 

This isn't the first time I've had either of these problems and I've posted both types of fault on the forum before (but I couldn't find my own posts ... hahahaha).  It is pretty disappointing that manufacturers and retailers appear to be failing to check their product before it is shipped.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[keitaro]

some times they get moved by shipping not saying this would be the case with the MA one but the tomix with lots of banging about could have slipped out.

 

If they are only clip in (there are a few out there kato and tomix) and if the bogie is griping to the foam, the banging will loosen it.

 

Ma one seems more like a packaging issue probably some worker turbo charging them models in the case and slammed it in hard.

 

Manufacturing issues are usually more like bad molds, missing or broken parts etc.

[The_Ghan]

Perhaps I should have called the thread "Poor QA" ... which is the thrust of my final paragraph.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[bill937ca]

I work at a very large retail fulfillment operation and our parcels move from section to section by conveyor belt and are dropped in moving from level to level while traveling along the belt.Its not a large drop, but it is a drop.  I would suspect HS is too small for automated processing like this.  I'm not sure how Japan Post and other post offices process their parcels, but it may be a somewhat similar system.

[Martijn Meerts]

I've had the bogies not clipped on problem a few times with all 3 of the big brands. Had the shell being pushed on too far as well with a Tomix once. It's unfortunate, but luckily easy enough to fix.

 

On the other hand, I've had similar problems with Marklin and Minitrix as well, so it's not limited to the Japanese trains ;)

[westfalen]

I don't think I've ever gotten an Intermountain boxcar that hasn't had doors and other bits and pieces loose in the box.

[The_Ghan]

I've had the bogies not clipped on problem a few times with all 3 of the big brands. Had the shell being pushed on too far as well with a Tomix once. It's unfortunate, but luckily easy enough to fix.

 

On the other hand, I've had similar problems with Marklin and Minitrix as well, so it's not limited to the Japanese trains ;)

 

They're all Chinese trains, aren't they? 

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[Martijn Meerts]

In a way they're all Chinese yes, even though Marklinists don't want to admit that =)

[westfalen]

Apart from Kato trains and Micro Trains freight cars isn't everything?

[KenS]

I've had the bogies not clipped on problem a few times with all 3 of the big brands. Had the shell being pushed on too far as well with a Tomix once. It's unfortunate, but luckily easy enough to fix.

 

I seem to have lucked out.  With a couple-dozen EMU models now I've only had one "truck not clipped on" problem, and nothing else.  Well, there was a Greenmax train that ran really poorly, but I think that was self-inflicted; it got stuck against a box while running on the test track, and I didn't notice for a half-hour.

 

It is pretty disappointing that manufacturers and retailers appear to be failing to check their product before it is shipped.

 

Although in a good brick-and-mortar store it would be reasonable to unbox a new purchase and see it run, that's not my expectation when buying from an online retailer. After all, I'm not there for them to demonstrate it to, and a volume-based operation would likely find it cheaper to handle a few defective claims than spend the extra time on each model.  It's part of what you give up when not using a real store.

 

It would be disappointing if manufacturers weren't doing good Q/A. But loose parts or trucks sound more like shipping issues than manufacturing ones.

[The_Ghan]

I don't expect them to run each and every train.  A visual inspection of the product before shipping is reasonable though.  Don't forget, the chain is:

 

1. Manufacturing Factory in China,

2. Manufacturer in Japan (eg: MA, Kato, Tomix),

3. Possibly a wholesaler,

4. Retailer.

 

One of them should have checked.  Certainly at either end of the chain.

 

Att: Bob!  Do you visually inspect all product before it ships?

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[keitaro]

one of my key plans was to have a tick box on my site to check the goods prior to mail and another tick to test running.

 

Everyone is different and may complain if you open the packaging without consent.

 

having said that there is benefit for sellers to offer this as will avoid costly return costs especially for international customers.

 

I know the policy is you pay shipping but Hs have always offered to pay shipping both ways for me.

[Sir Madog]

I have not yet encountered quality issues. All of my locos and rolling stock are Kato, and all of them ordered from HS. They arrived safe and sound. I have read a few "bad" things about MicroAce and Tomix, that´s why I stayed away from those brands. How´s Modemo?

[keitaro]

not sure on modemo but i have had my share of kato's having things popped out of place like the E5 came with it's wheels popped off. one of my kiha 110's had the coupler unattached too easily reattached.

 

to me i think it's more things cause during shipping.

 

my Ma steam loco issue however was a definate manuafacturing issue with poor running performance.

[westfalen]

I don't expect them to run each and every train.  A visual inspection of the product before shipping is reasonable though.  Don't forget, the chain is:

 

1. Manufacturing Factory in China,

2. Manufacturer in Japan (eg: MA, Kato, Tomix),

3. Possibly a wholesaler,

4. Retailer.

 

One of them should have checked.  Certainly at either end of the chain.

 

Att: Bob!  Do you visually inspect all product before it ships?

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

Of course all of them have the opportunity to drop the package as well, and the person in the shipping department might not be a model railroader and not know those little pieces should be loose in the box. And then don't forget the damage that two country's post offices can do on its final trip to us. I actually think it's amazing that so much of our fragile model railroad equipment gets to us in one piece.

[The_Ghan]

west,

 

I really don't think the kind of problems I've encountered are possibly caused by damage in transit.  There is no marking or impact damage on any of the packaging.  I really think the problems occur as the cars are packed in the cases.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[linkey]

Wondering why don't MA have spare parts for sale? I noticed when I was trying to place my Steel Coil train on that one bogie was missing a wheel and cause it just came out of it's box it was surprising to find this and sad that I can't get a proper replacement wheelset.

[KenS]

I have not yet encountered quality issues. All of my locos and rolling stock are Kato, and all of them ordered from HS. They arrived safe and sound. I have read a few "bad" things about MicroAce and Tomix, that´s why I stayed away from those brands. How´s Modemo?

 

I have a couple of MicroAce EMUs, and while I don't think they're as good as Kato in a mechanical sense, they're still good trains.

 

I'm particularly impressed with Modemo.  I have several of their Setagaya line trams. While they don't have detailed interiors (the motor and drive shaft takes up the space), I find them better runners than my one Unitram (which, frankly, didn't impress me except visually). I haven't taken mine apart, but it would appear that all three trucks are driven, which probably accounts for their good operation.

[cteno4]

actually the cases with the hard foam in them will transfer most of the g force of a hard impact of the box to the train. shipping can create some pretty hard slams that if they it flat wont really ding up your shipping box much (although most boxes i get do have some evidence of some hard slams somewhere on the box) but could transfer quite a bit of force to knock something loose. ive had trucks come loose and shells to motor chassis get crammed onto the bottom chassis. i think this is due to the slam happening with the chassis on top of the shell and it just forces it down into the shell some. i can see small things like wheels and such popping out like this as well.

 

motor trucks i would think harder to do this. wondering if they were just not quite seated when put in the box or with ma if its put in with a bit of force with some of their tight inserts it could perhaps get the trucked jammed in at an angle so that a slam at the right angle then forces the truck loose.

 

while ma does seem to run a bit more rough out of the box than tomix or kato, with some lubing and breaking in they come out the same as the others in the end. with like 120 trains and a pretty even spread between ma, kato, and tomix, ive not noticed one to be particularly better than the other. all have had issues in various ways and pretty evenly spread. with time i find that most trains that get a lot of use they start to growl at some point and require a good cleanout and relubing. i

 

for the money i would say the QA is pretty good for how fiddly n scale trains are. to go up in QA would really hop up the price as it would be a very manual process to make sure everything is absolutely perfect.

 

cheers

 

jeff

[Sir Madog]

As I stated earlier, I am quite pleased with the quality of my Kato stock. It matches or even surpassed the quality of the likes of Fleischmann, Minitrix or other leading German brands some years ago. Today´s a different talk. As most of the manufacturing has moved to China (although the Germans won´t admit that), there are a lot of quality issues with those former premium brands, but fortunately not as bad as what I have seen with products for the US market.

 

Athearn, Atlas and Bowser, as well as Bachmann, seem to understand the term R-T-R as "ready to repair". Broken off hand rails, snow plows, bells, number plates or missing parts seem to be normal - one of the many reasons I moved away from modeling US prototype.

[clem24]

Ghan it's not QC... It's shipping. Trust me. Happens *all* the time. Just because your box shows no sign of damage or wear does not mean it wasn't rough handled (think dropping the box straight to the ground). The pushed in shells happen frequently to motor cars because of the extra weight of the frame. If the box was REALLY rough handled, any of the other cars are fair game for push in chassis. The Tomix bogies were meant to be "loose" so that they can be easily pulled off for cleaning (unlike MA bogies).

 

In any case, even if it wasn't shipping, this is HARDLY a case a QC. I see QC problems as say, lights or motors DOA, flash on plastics, botched paint jobs or badly applied decals, etc... If you think about how these are manufactured, there's really no way for the motor car to be physically transferred by the worker from their work table to the box without the bogie falling out during transition.

[scott]

Athearn, Atlas and Bowser, as well as Bachmann, seem to understand the term R-T-R as "ready to repair".

 

  Yeah, my experience with these companies has been limited, but you seem to be spot on.

 

I also tend to suspect the trucks-coming-off problem is from shipping. The only messed-up train I've received (so far...) was a Kato EF81 that had lost the middle truck. But it's easy to see how a good whack would knock that free, and it was easy to replace (even for a klutz like me).

[David]

Ghan it's not QC... It's shipping. Trust me. Happens *all* the time. Just because your box shows no sign of damage or wear does not mean it wasn't rough handled (think dropping the box straight to the ground). The pushed in shells happen frequently to motor cars because of the extra weight of the frame. If the box was REALLY rough handled, any of the other cars are fair game for push in chassis. The Tomix bogies were meant to be "loose" so that they can be easily pulled off for cleaning (unlike MA bogies).

 

In any case, even if it wasn't shipping, this is HARDLY a case a QC. I see QC problems as say, lights or motors DOA, flash on plastics, botched paint jobs or badly applied decals, etc... If you think about how these are manufactured, there's really no way for the motor car to be physically transferred by the worker from their work table to the box without the bogie falling out during transition.

 

I have had issues with the QA on Microtrains DMUs - some of the detail parts that you would normally have to install yourself on a Kato model still had flash on them.