New layout ideas?

[KenS]

Hobby Dreamer, I'm just a bit worried that having the shinkansen some 10cm above ground floor is a bit much. I wonder if there are any prototype shots of a shinkansen line being that high up from ground level in a city...

 

10 cm is 16m.  I'm not sure of the exact height, but here are a couple of photos of the shinkansen viaduct in Kita ward on the north side of Tokyo, and it sure looks fairly high:

 

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/54416378

 

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/15466896

 

It's high enough that it clears highway bridges that go above the lower tracks.  The tracks, for the Tohoku Shinkansen, remain elevated from around Nishi-Nippori station to north of Akabane station (a distance of about 5 miles, stopping at none of the stations it passes), where, still elevated (although much lower) they run into a hillside, tunnel under a shrine, a school, and other buildings, and come out the other side 1600 feet away, still elevated. before crossing a river.

 

If someone made a model railroad with a shinkansen tunneling through a small hill like that, it would probably look contrived.  But it's real.  You can find it on google maps by following the tracks noth-west from Akabane station.

[Martijn Meerts]

That's just the problem.. While something might exist and look good in prototype, it won't necessarily look good in model :)

 

Guess I'll have to check with some of the Tomix elevated track I have, see how it might look.

 

Definitely turning out a lot more difficult to come up with something interesting then I thought ;)

[Martijn Meerts]

Well, the move is complete. Still a ton of boxes to unpack and stuff to sort out and what not. However, I did go and get some accurate measurements of the new train room.

 

The image shows a very rough idea of the layout sections as I'm considering now.

 

 

The thin light green bar is the door. Right now I've removed it, because the hinges were damaged. Not sure I'll put it back in, it's not really necessary.

The thing light blue bar is a window. The red bar to the left of the blue bar is a heating element.

 

The light grey section is a helix going down several levels to the large hidden yard, which will be located under most of the length of the light green section. The top part of this section will probably be rounded off instead of square like in the sketch.

 

The light green section is the urban/city part of the layout. It'll stretch out further to the right, covering the helix. The idea is to have a station capable of holding full length trains. I might make it a terminal station for shinkansen and express, and a through station for rural trains. I'll need to figure this out once the track plan starts taking shape.

 

The blue section is the rural section with mountains and farms and rice fields, as well as some small stations and such. I'm thinking of having a raised shinkansen track going through here, and disappearing in a mountain around the top left of blue section.

 

The red section should be something like a large servicing terminal, maybe combined with a museum. Another option would be a container terminal or some other freight related stuff. The red section will be rounded off light the grey one.

 

The yellow section I'm not sure about yet.. Could be a harbor, or something like a tram service station/yard. This section will also be rounded off.

 

There'll be trams (probably the portrams) running though the urban section.

 

 

As for lengths, the wall at the bottom is 607cm. The one at the left is 343.5cm. All sections are 80cm deep, which is quite a lot, but everything will be modules and I'm designing the module legs in such a way that it's real easy to take a module out if needed. The grey and red section is 100cm instead of 80.

 

The space in the top right will be used for a small desk to install decoders, put together building kits, paint etc. Above the layout will be multiple layers of shelves, some to store all the train cases, some to put small (tram) modules on, etc.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(I have no idea where to start though   )

[KenS]

A couple of thoughts:

 

1. 80cm is quite deep, and modules that are removable in theory may be too much work to remove easily once wiring is in place.  I built my tables to come apart, but I've only done that once, and don't plan to do it again if I can avoid it.  My tables are 60cm (24") deep, and that's more than enough.  I'm actually coming to believe that 45cm (18") would be better, although there were good reasons for the size I used and it would be hard to get as much track into a smaller table without it looking like just track and no scenery.

 

2. The one thing I've come to regret is not having visible storage tracks in my design, just the (planned) under-table storage tracks with a helix like yours.  I'm considering adding on some kind of "L" side table that has a large set of storage tracks designed to look like a train yard of some kind.  You might want to think about doing something like that with your red section.

[Martijn Meerts]

Ken, the 80cm might indeed cause some issues/frustration. The way I've got the modular system in my mind though would make it a snap to remove a single module though. All wiring from 1 to the other module will be done using connectors, so it's really just a matter of unplugging the module in question, and lifting it out (in theory anyway ;))

 

The main reason I'm considering 80 deep, is that my storage yard is 70 deep. The reason for that is that the yard was initially designed for a modular exhibition layout that has modules of 70 deep. Rather than build 2 huge yards, I want to use the exhibition yard with this more static layout as well. In order to that, the modules above the yard need to be around 80. I might end up doing only the light green section 80 deep, and the rest 60 or so. Another reason for 80 deep though, is to make it possible for shinkansen track to do a 180 degree turn without having to resort to using smaller-than-recommended curves.

 

Since the yard will be able to store full length trains, there's really no room to have it visible without sacrificing a lot of space, and the way the yard will function it would look weird anyway. For the red section I'm really leaning mostly to a good sized servicing terminal + museum, so there'll be visible storage there, albeit mainly for steam. I might do a small station with 2 or 3 terminating tracks near where the red and blue sections meet. That way I can simulate (shorter) steamers pulling in, uncoupling, doing a runaround and then to go the servicing terminal.

 

 

 

Everything is still in general idea stage though, so I definitely appreciate all the comments I can get :)

[CaptOblivious]

I seem to be coming to this party late, but I thought I'd throw my hat in the ring.

 

I'd do a shelf layout, and model a private railway line (none in particular, just something anonymous but recognizable) point to point. It must have enough stations to provide interesting options for realistic operation, i.e., meets between expresses and locals headed the same way, maybe some four track operation. Hankyu between Kyoto and Osaka might be a fun inspiration. Two cities at either terminus, with rural in between to get a nice mix of scenery. But the focus would be on interesting operations: Something to offer a chance for experimenting with different diamonds, computer control tied to the timetable, working to a timetable in cooperation with your dad, that kind of thing.

 

Anyway, that's what I'd do, in broad strokes.

[scott]

I'd do a shelf layout, and model a private railway line (none in particular, just something anonymous but recognizable) point to point. It must have enough stations to provide interesting options for realistic operation, i.e., meets between expresses and locals headed the same way, maybe some four track operation.

 

This sounds a lot like what I would do with the space, if the layout was done for my preferences. Maybe around the walls plus a winding around a peninsula in the middle of the room.

[cteno4]

Martijn,

 

if you want operations and room for scenery i would keep your 0.8m depth. the jrm modules are 0.5m deep and they are a bit limited in some areas for scenery once we got two ground lines and two viaduct lines in there and then some sidings, passing tracks, etc. it would have been nice to have a bit more room, but for a mobile layout we had to limit it at that depth to make sure they would fit thru car doors, etc. 1m is the max you can also reach back over! careful of the corners!

 

for a home layout it would be nice to have some extra room for scenery so stuff is not right on top of each other. bookshelf layouts are great, but they limit you to what the captain said of a simple point to point with track at a minimum and most all real estate going to scenery, you have sounded like you wanted a more complex track layout in the past with more track. its really what you want lots of track and scenery, just lots of track, or simple track and lots of scenery.

 

i like your idea of doing this sectional like this (assume its not modular with tracks always ending up in the same places at junctions). this is exactly what i have been planning the last 5 years for my eventual basement empire. my big worry is that if it was not able to come out easy i would be 90% done with the layout and we would move! figure something 1mx2m could easily be crated and moved. only issue then is getting a similar sized room for it to move into, but if that cant happen then maybe a couple of sections get replaces so the others can still fit and you dont start from scratch.

 

will be fun to watch your evolution here!

 

congrats on the new diggs as well!

 

cheers

 

jeff

[Martijn Meerts]

Capt, Scott: I'll probably do a shelf layout in addition to the main one. I have too many trains to run on a single layout, and with the main layout being so big, I need to build a modular shelf layout (mini modules) to do something else once in a while. The modules I was planning for the project party were actually the first 2 of a shelf layout idea.

 

 

Jeff, I've always like a lot of track on a layout, but slowly I'm moving more towards somewhat more believable track plans and scenery. Of course, with the space available, there'll be quite a lot of track regardless. I'm also going to run a tram through a good part of the city, so there'll be plenty of movement. The hidden yard is 22 tracks, and some tracks are divided into sections so multiple trains can be stored on 1 track. That means I can have quite a lot of trains on the tracks, so there's a lot of variation.

 

The layout will be in sections, not modules, so there's definitely not going to be some standard I need to stick to :) Also, I doubt I'll be moving any time soon, and if I do move there's a good chance it'll be abroad again. I'd still like to live and work in the US for a while, as well as in Japan. Might never happen, but I'm allowed to have dreams right? :)

 

 

One thing I forgot to mention, the layout will be fairly close to the floor (not sure how close yet) for various reasons, which means I can fairly easily reach the hard to get to spots, even when the sections are 80cm deep.

[cteno4]

sounds like you can get both in here with the lower layout being deep and having a lot of track but at 0.8m still room for lots of scenery to help visually take away the massive track but still give you the operations you want. then a shelf layout up higher nearer eye level with minimal track and your mini modules that focus more on detailed scenery!

 

what an empire!

 

jeff

[Martijn Meerts]

Jeff, yeah.. lot of possibilities in the new train room. I'm just wondering where I should put my H0 and 0 scale modules *cough* ;)

 

 

I've been thinking of a name for the layout as well, mainly for archival purposes (so I can put all designs and pictures etc. in 1 collection). The name of the street we live now has "vos" in it, which is Dutch for fox.. So I figured maybe something with kitsune could be interesting, especially since I've always liked that word.

 

 

Anyways, we've been settling in quite nicely so far. There's still a lot of boxes to be unpacked and sorted, but I really wanted to get started on the new layout as well. Even if it's only to build the frame of the hidden yard sections, and get them on some legs. I'll need to make a lot of very straight cuts, and also a lot of mitre cuts, so I'm looking at getting something like http://www.toolstop.co.uk/metabo-kgs216m-laser-slide-compound-mitre-saw-240v-2011-model-p14637 to make it easier on myself.

 

 

A potential problem with getting started though, is that I still haven't most of the new track I'll be using for the layout. I've only found some of the flex tracks, but none of the turnouts =)

[cteno4]

Anyways, we've been settling in quite nicely so far. There's still a lot of boxes to be unpacked and sorted, but I really wanted to get started on the new layout as well. Even if it's only to build the frame of the hidden yard sections, and get them on some legs. I'll need to make a lot of very straight cuts, and also a lot of mitre cuts, so I'm looking at getting something like http://www.toolstop.co.uk/metabo-kgs216m-laser-slide-compound-mitre-saw-240v-2011-model-p14637 to make it easier on myself.

 

compound miter saws are great for layout stuff. very versatile for small framing material, but lets you do very compound angle cuts or wider thinner stuff. probably the best bang for the buck and space for a saw. table saws are great, but require a lot more room. a mitre saw like this you can hang on the wall to keep it out of the way. beware though they are a bit like radial arm saws in that the sliding blade means watch your fingers. a laser guide really helps remind you where the blade will be going! sounds like being an old maid, but i know three very careful/skilled shop guys with various fingers missing...

 

A potential problem with getting started though, is that I still haven't most of the new track I'll be using for the layout. I've only found some of the flex tracks, but none of the turnouts =)

LOL im still finding stuff from the move 10 years ago! good luck!

 

jeff

[Martijn Meerts]

Yeah, once you get comfortable using a power tool, its easy to ignore/forget the safety precautions. The moderns saws have a good amount of protection, but I'll definitely be careful.

 

The saw has been ordered. Went with a local hardware store rather than ordering online. They had to order it, but I got a nice discount, plus it's just so much easier to return it to a local store rather than having to mail it back. Of course, one shouldn't expect to have to return it, but still :)

[Mudkip Orange]

Yeah, I'd definitely roll with 80cm modules vs 60.

 

How long as the wall at the top before it notches out for the door? I'm thinking I may try to throw something together in XTrakCad. Also - what track manufacturer(s) will you be using?

[Dani]

Yeah, once you get comfortable using a power tool, its easy to ignore/forget the safety precautions. The moderns saws have a good amount of protection, but I'll definitely be careful.

 

The saw has been ordered. Went with a local hardware store rather than ordering online. They had to order it, but I got a nice discount, plus it's just so much easier to return it to a local store rather than having to mail it back. Of course, one shouldn't expect to have to return it, but still :)

 

Good tool Martijn!! I also have a 1500W telescopic SAW. It's exactly the same but seems they changed the brand name. It cuts perfect angles, it's extremely precise and cuts are clean.

But I will never say enough times BE CAREFUL. It's as you mentioned, when you use it for a continuous time it's very easy to feel safe and relax....

I remember one day cutting one long piece of wood (difficult to have any problem because my hands weren't close to the saw and piece was quite heavy), just in the twinkling of an eye the wood flew away and my fingers got really close to the saw. The wood had a nail inside and the saw strength made it literally fly away. Now I always hold the wood firmly and don't relax.

 

It's not something to scare because it's true that it has a lot of safety, but never relax. Sometimes it's not the saw what can hurt you.

[Martijn Meerts]

Mudkip, the wall there is about 4 meters. It's actually a little longer, but I want a bit of a  margin in case I put the door back in :) For track, I'm using Peco code 55.

 

 

Dani, yeah, it's real easy to get hurt, especially with the (semi-)stationary tools like that. I used to work as a car mechanic, so I know a little about being careful, but even there I've seen plenty accidents. The one advantage is that I won't be using the saw daily, so I'll probably never be completely relaxed when using it.

[CaptOblivious]

Dani, lucky! My father did some very nasty (but thankfully, reparable) things to his hand when he took his circular saw for granted one day. Very nearly lost the whole damned thing. You'd never know to see it now, but dear god…

 

Yeah, once you get comfortable using a power tool, its easy to ignore/forget the safety precautions. The moderns saws have a good amount of protection, but I'll definitely be careful.

 

The saw has been ordered. Went with a local hardware store rather than ordering online. They had to order it, but I got a nice discount, plus it's just so much easier to return it to a local store rather than having to mail it back. Of course, one shouldn't expect to have to return it, but still :)

 

Good tool Martijn!! I also have a 1500W telescopic SAW. It's exactly the same but seems they changed the brand name. It cuts perfect angles, it's extremely precise and cuts are clean.

But I will never say enough times BE CAREFUL. It's as you mentioned, when you use it for a continuous time it's very easy to feel safe and relax....

I remember one day cutting one long piece of wood (difficult to have any problem because my hands weren't close to the saw and piece was quite heavy), just in the twinkling of an eye the wood flew away and my fingers got really close to the saw. The wood had a nail inside and the saw strength made it literally fly away. Now I always hold the wood firmly and don't relax.

 

It's not something to scare because it's true that it has a lot of safety, but never relax. Sometimes it's not the saw what can hurt you.

 

 

[Martijn Meerts]

Here's an overview with dimension, might make it easier for those wanting to give a track plan a go .. For now, I'm still aiming for 80cm depth. All numbers in centimeters.

[Mudkip Orange]

Will Peco 55 work with Japanese pizza cutters?

[Martijn Meerts]

For the most part, yes.. I don't have that many Japanese trains that have pizza cutter wheels actually.

[Bernard]

Will Peco 55 work with Japanese pizza cutters?

 

I have one section of my layout where I used Micro-Engineering code 55 and all of my Kato & Tomix trains have no problems with the track. Even some of my Minitrix trains are fine on code 55, which was a surprise to me.

I have to wonder how a Shinkansen at high speed would be on code 55.  :dontknow:

[cteno4]

I believe all of curt's layout is code 55 (i think me) and his trains run fine at speed. only issues with some derailments are things like engines with a third center bogie on points or places like road crossing where scenery comes up around the rails. i think he had worked out all these odd spots though for the most part. maybe he will chime in here after hes back from vacation.

 

jeff

[Dani]

Sorry for my ignorance... what is pizza cutter wheels?

 

I'm also using Peco code 55 (I'm in love with that track after Fleishmann and Minitrix, no experience in Kato or Tomix) and I have no problems running Minitrix (BR260), Kato EMU (Mangattan Linner, Chuo line, ...), Kato express (10-352 JR Express Series 181) or Fleishmann stream engines with tender. But I don't know if they are equipped with this "pizza cutter wheels"...   

 

Thanks,

Dani.

[Martijn Meerts]

Bernard, it'd be fine as long as the track is straight.. Probably also a good idea to solder them as much as possible.

 

 

Jeff, Curt's layout looked like Peco. I remember having a good look at the turnouts. Noticed they used servos as well. They're probably code 55.

 

 

Dani, "pizza cutter wheels" are wheels with huge flanges, which makes them look like pizza cutters. Mostly old trains and some of the cheaper brands have these.

[Kamiyacho]

Yes, my layout is Peco code 55.  Works well when you stay on top of the maintenance.  I run pretty much all Kato trains/locos with Kato and MA freight cars.