New layout ideas?

[Martijn Meerts]

So, our current non-Japanese layout has been dismantled, and we're now looking at a bunch of track plans, sketches, pictures, and whatnot to get some ideas for a new layout. The problem is, I'm pretty empty if it comes to inspiration, so instead I figured I'd ask here what people would do layout wise if they had a certain amount of space :)

 

So, what would you do if you have approximately 5 x 3.5 meters for a layout? How would you lay out the table (along the walls, center of the room, etc.), what would be your main focus, etc. etc.

 

 

 

Personally, I want to fit in a good sized station for non-shinkansen trains in a good sized city with various skyscrapers etc. I also want to somehow get a 4 track shinkansen station in the city somewhere, close-ish to the other station. Furthermore, some track track for low floor trams like the portrams. On the other end, I'd like some less populated area's with some nice parade tracks. I'd also like some industry in there as well somehow.

 

So, what would you do? Track plans/track plan snippets, sketches, prototype pictures etc. would be awesome. Maybe I'll just turn this into a JNS layout, and incorporate various ideas from various people :)

[Sir Madog]

Martijn,

 

your question is close to being like the question "I have a big garage, now please tell me, what kind of car should I buy"

 

A room of that size leaves an enormous amount of options. It is big enough (assuming that the layout will be in N scale) for just any type - from an island, to a walk-in type of layout to a shelf-type layout along the walls of the room.

 

The basic question which needs to be answered is the type of operation you folks envision to have. Do you want to watch trains run rather than to operate the local, or vice versa, or a mixture of both?

 

If I had that amount of space available, I´d build a modular layout along the walls, following closely a prototype, like the Eiden or the Enoshima. I´d try to capture as much as possible of the flavor of this line and would even attempt to operate prototypical. But that´s me, others may have different ideas.

[Darklighter]

How about Tokyo Station? 

 

A room of that size leaves an enormous amount of options.

 

Not if you want to run 16-car Shinkansen.

[Martijn Meerts]

Madog: I guess it's a bit of a difficult question, obviously everyone will have different ideas. But that's exactly why I thought it'd be interesting to see what people would do if they had a dedicated, decent sized room to build a layout in :)

 

And while I would love to take some of the ideas presented here, and implement them into our layout, people shouldn't think about our situation, but really only what they would do, not what we should do :)

 

 

Darklighter: I still plan on building Tokyo station in some form, but that really has to be for a modular exhibition layout. The more I think of it, the more I feel Tokyo Station is actually quite boring as a model train station. Also, 5 meters is a tight fit for a station that should be able to hold 16 car shinkansen. It would fit, but you'd end up with next to no space on either end to go anywhere.

 

I might revise my plans somewhat, and build Tokyo Station as it was back in the days of steam. I believe the paper kit Jeff has depicts the station from around that era.

[Dani]

Just a rough idea as it comes to my mind:

 

* Lay along the walls with control panel and operator in the middle, this will give you more track lengths

* My "ideal" of Japanese layout (that I'm trying to apply to my "in construction" layout) must contain at least these things:

   - Big city with skyscrapers and shinkansens running between buildings, with a viaduct station for shinkansens. If it's big enough, tram and a ground floor station may be for non shinkansen.

   - Rural zone away from the city with an elevated area, trying to reproduce those Japanese forests and mountains, with some small, old, wooden sleepers track and reproducing a temple area or baths area (I think you can go for both...).

 

More things depends on how you enjoy a layout: Do you like goods and manoeuvres, may be a harbour? Or you prefer seeing long trains and play reproducing timetables?

 

I'll try to find some plans of this size in my books and scan something and post ( Can I? )

 

Ganbatte!!!!

 

Dani.

[Martijn Meerts]

Dani, feel free to post the scans, just make sure you mention which books they're from, and who wrote the book. That way you're giving credit where credit's due. (and of course, don't scan and post the entire book  )

[Hobby Dreamer]

what would you do if you have approximately 5 x 3.5 meters for a layout?

 

First, I'd wet myself!!!

 

You are such a talented guy anything you do will look amazing!  I, too, like the wall idea. If you can build a shelf you could have your high-speed passenger stuff on one level (for lengths of running) and then maybe have another shelf, above or below for a nice tram run.. The thing about N scale is that 1/2 a meter in depth is a ton of room for rail, roads, structures and scenery.

 

Then you have the core of the room and other walls etc to add your stations..

 

Also, if you do a double shelf idea you can have one rural with trees and fields (and maybe photo backdrop) and the other can be "busy". And you have your station and yards etc in the core of the room..

 

I'm not really "in" to a Japanese layout but too few people have a nice length to run their trains and 5 meters is nice if the train is not too long. Its a pity not to have a long run for your Japanese trains!!

 

Good luck

Rick

[keiman]

Thats bigger trhan the overall dimensions of our ground floor ???

Personal thoughts as others round the walls, that way you can have gradients fixed to the wall.

Centre Island possibly linked by BIG bridge to the track on the walls.

Island to have Terminus station and Tramway/Bus system and your city.

[Darklighter]

As layout designer Lance Mindheim wrote in his blog (http://www.shelflayouts.com/blog.htm , "Know Thyself", October 26, 2010):

 

Too much attention is placed on the space available for the layout.  A far more important question is, “How much energy do you have?  How much time will you realistically have to spend on the layout?  Will you be as energized two years from now when the reality of construction obstacles has set in?  Is the design something that can be brought to critical mass relatively quickly without getting bogged down during construction?

 

What area of modeling interests you the most?  Scenery?  Structures?  Rolling Stock?  Does the design address those interests?  Do you want to model a specific town that brings back fond memories or a longer geographic expanse?  Do you want to model a specific rail company?  Do you want to model a specific operational scheme?

 

Are you primarily a railfan, happy to just watch trains running through interesting scenery or are you an operator?  Are you truly interested in operations?  Really, or were just told you should be interested but really are not?

 

If you are interested in operations, what type?  Main line runs? Passenger trains? Locals? Yard classification?  All of the above melded into an overall transportation system?  Does the layout size and scale address those interests?

 

Are you interest in highly detailed scenes, general representations, or a mix?

[Hobby Dreamer]

Thanks Darklighter  for that quote..

 

I'd add to that: your interests are likely to evolve when material, technology or know-how  advance.

[bill937ca]

If had that space I'd go for freestanding benchwork (like a table) that allows full length trains to run across the layout on an embankment so you could view the train as a whole.  You'd need access hatches but you could also have a U shaped cut in like a bay along a coast line.

 

A U shaped cut like a bay would allow for interesting night scenes if you light your buildings and trains.  JR's mainline curves around a harbor in a crescent shape as it passes through Hiiroshima.  Tram lines link the three JR stations with each other and shopping areas.  That could be your urban area and if there are mountains in the background your train lines could curve around the mountains to less populated areas on the other side of the layout.

 

A layout of that size focused on Japan should have mountains! Most Japanese cities are located on the coast, so the cut-in bay idea would allow long panoramas and sparking effects in the dark.

 

Of course, because of the realities of jobs, and lives changing it probably should be built in modules or at least sections that can be bolted together as additions are made.  This also saves you from the overwhelming task feeling.

[Krackel Hopper]

hey hey,

 

I am partial to the modular shelf idea for starters.

 

When it comes to your station. how about you build your station on a curve?  You would need a large sweeping curve (flex track or tomix 502/539 slab rail) and your platforms would need to be custom built.  It would be quite a bit of work, but you would get a large station into what would seem like a smaller space.  Then, in the large triangle of "unused space" behind the station into the corner you could place your skyscrapers.

 

If you did an elevated station on a curve like this, you could have some interesting views of ground level (local/freight) tracks passing under the viaduct.. or if you really wanted, use the curve to create a multilevel station (much like KenS is doing with his layout) with bullets on top and locals on the ground floor.

[Martijn Meerts]

Thanks for all the ideas so far, it's really interesting to read how people would do things :)

 

I hadn't thought about the shelf/double deck layout, but that's actually something I could do. On the lower floor would be the main layout, and on the upper floor I could have my mini modules set up. That'd also allow me to mount some good quality lights over the entire layout.

 

 

Darklighter, that's a really good quote, and very true. It's also a well known fact that the larger the layout, the less chance of it actually being completed :) That's why I'm also doing the mini modules though, it's a good way of doing something different once in a while.

 

 

Bill, some sort of harbor is definitely something I'm looking at as well. I still have my 1:150 Nippon Maru which needs a nice spot. The layout will definitely be in sections, something we didn't do with our previous layout, and which is the reason why we had to tear it down.

 

 

Krackel, a curved station is much more interesting than a straight station, especially when the station is big enough for longer trains. I'll likely be using all Peco track, so I can make some nice sweeping curves. The platforms themselves wouldn't be too difficult, but platform roofs would be interesting to scratch build :)

[KenS]

Well, from what I've read of your interests I don't think this would fit them, but it's probably what I would do if I had that size room: an around-the-wall tail-chaser layout for big urban trains (yeah, it's my mania). Here's a quick-and-dirty sketch using Unitrack in RailModeller.

 

I'd probably add a bit, but this is the core concept: a 66cm shelf around the wall, with two separate tracks, Shinkansen and Narrow Gauge. One side would be taken up with a large display yard, with the commuter line running through it, but the Shinkansen line running behind on a viaduct.  There'd be a duck-under to reach the door (or maybe the kind of "bridge" that pivots out into the room).

 

I figure I can fit five 16-car Shinkansen and four 11-car commuter trains, plus a pair of shorter limited express types in the yards.  There might be additional hidden storage (that's the most obvious thing to add).  The second long wall would be taken up by one huge station (8 tracks, 7 platforms).  The two end walls would have commuter stations.  I might center the commuter station on the long wall to make a larger gap between it and the right side station now that I look at the diagram.

 

At this reduction it's hard to tell, but the black splotches on double-track are crossovers (one in each yard and one to give both shinkansen tracks access to the shinkansen yard).

 

I think I'd work in a small freight branch and/or a two-track container yard while I was at it.  Maybe cluttering up the space between commuter and shinkansen on the right side.  The left-side station would be some kind of foreground urban scene, with the ground-level train station and viaduct behind it.

 

This is definitely more of a "railfan" (watch the trains run) layout than an operational one.  If I wanted the latter I'd probably lose the shinkansen line and put in a couple of small branch lines that come together into the main station, and a larger freight terminal. A peninsula of some kind would also work with shorter trains, although aisle space would be problematic. There's a lot you could do with that size room in N-scale.

[Martijn Meerts]

Ken, definitely allows a lot of trains to be run, especially if you add in a hidden yard somewhere.

 

I can't do an around the room layout actually, because part of the room will need to serve as a service station/kit building place/airbrush station/etc. :)

 

 

So far, based on what I already had in mind, and some of the input here, I'm thinking of going for a large-ish curved station on level 1 (level 0 being ground floor), a 4-track shinkansen station either on level 2, or on level 1 as well, and somehow make the shinkansen tracks part of the regular station. I'm also definitely going for a tram line.

 

The large station will be situated in a city, so trains will be partially out of sight al the time due to tall buildings. The buildings can also be used to hide the trains going to and from the hidden yard. I have an idea of a custom station building which would make it possible to run shinkansen on level 2 and the rest on level 1, I just worry a bit that running the shinkansen that high up would look a bit weird.

 

The shinkansen loop, the regular loop and the trams will probably be fully automated. The tram line is just for additional movement on the layout, whereas the other lines are to provide space for long trains to run. For manual play I'm considering some smaller freight operation, maybe a small container terminal, or maybe a loco servicing terminal that especially steamers can reach from the main line.

 

The new layout is definitely going to be modules, probably 80cm deep. Length will depend on what's going on there, but shouldn't exceed 150cm or so. The reason for the 80cm depth is because that way I can use the storage yard modules I've already started building with the new layout, by mounting them underneath the new modules.

 

I'm also going to make sure that all curves are super elevated, since that definitely looks a lot better :)

[David]

I've got some ideas for commuter lines but they mostly involve a slightly larger area (more American garage sized) and personally I'm not sure I'd like them in the end.

 

But one interesting idea I had that might give you some ideas is to subvert the normal reach rule - normally an around the room layout (the best use of space) can't use benchwork deeper then about 2 feet or you can't reach the back. I was thinking about room layouts that let you sit in the middle and watch everything, and how an average 12' wide room leaves a lot of wasted space in that configuration - unless you make one side much deeper then you normally should (twice as deep) and insert a narrow access corridor (24") for construction and maintenance behind it.

 

Now you have a layout with two main areas - narrow along the wall benchwork for a long running line (maybe with a suburban or rural appearance with a return loop at the end) and a large dense area in which you can have overlapping lines. Remember that the 40-48" deep bench means the lines don't have to run straight and parallel, they can weave and turn over themselves much like a center of the room layout only without losing the long runs of an around the room layout. Also I hate duck unders so this layout has none. It's assumed the door is somewhere near the bottom.

[Hobby Dreamer]

The 2 level design should be great!

[Darklighter]

If you want to build a multi-deck layout, I can recommend Designing and Building Multi-Deck Model Railroads by Tony Koester.

 

A depth of 80 cm is a lot. How are you going to support the upper lever? (I'm using shelf brackets, but I don't know if they are available in adequate sizes for your requirements.)

[Hobby Dreamer]

Nice book link!

 

How much weight can shelf brackets hold? Or, how heavy can track etc get on a shelf of 8 to 18 inches?

[Martijn Meerts]

Hobby Dreamer, I'm just a bit worried that having the shinkansen some 10cm above ground floor is a bit much. I wonder if there are any prototype shots of a shinkansen line being that high up from ground level in a city...

 

 

Darklighter, it's not going to be a multi-deck layout as such. I'm just planning on putting some shelves along the wall above the large layout, and use those shelves to set up my mini modules. There won't be a connection from the large layout to the "upper deck" at all.

 

80 cm is indeed quite a bit, and I might revise that. If I want to use the current storage yard the new modules will have to be around 80cm though, otherwise the storage yard won't fit underneath. I'm uncertain if it's possible to use the storage yard however, considering it's designed for full length trains. The 80cm isn't necessarily going to be a problem though, as I'm planning on building the modules and the legs in such a way that modules can be easily removed when they require work. A train stalling in the back isn't an issue, I can always reach those one way or another.

 

 

Since I don't have access to the new house yet, I can't really get a good view of what's possible on the room in question, so detailed planning and such is still a bit premature :)

[Martijn Meerts]

Did a quick search for some shots of elevated shinkansen tracks, came across some interesting pictures.

 

http://shibuya246.com/2010/10/13/shikoku-trip/

 

Some 4 pictures down there's a shot of a bunch of track on different levels. Not sure the upper level is a shinkansen track, but either way, it does seem they go up 2 levels.

 

 

http://shibuya246.com/2010/12/12/kyoto-view/

 

Lovely Kyoto pictures, and it certainly looks like that shinkansen is going up to a 2nd level.

 

 

With the track being that high up, what would be underneath the track? I've seen pictures of there being some parking space, bicycle parking space, even a small children's playground.

[Darklighter]

In Toyama the shinkansen tracks will be up to 12.3 m above ground (http://www.pref.toyama.jp/cms_sec/1506/00003011/00342161.pdf , page 5) and I guess that's not an exception.

(Btw., I once planed to model the future Toyama station as it's got lots of potential (Hokuriku Shinkansen, Hokuriku Main Line (double track, electrified), Takayama Main Line (terminus, single track, not electrified), Toyama Light Rail, Toyama Chihō Railway))

 

With the track being that high up, what would be underneath the track?

Google street view is your friend. ;)

[Dani]

Darklighter, it's not going to be a multi-deck layout as such. I'm just planning on putting some shelves along the wall above the large layout, and use those shelves to set up my mini modules. There won't be a connection from the large layout to the "upper deck" at all.

 

But think where to mount and helicoidal ramp because when you finish the layout (in 10 years aprox    ) you will want to expand it, and a second shelf level is a very good idea!!!

[Martijn Meerts]

10 years? That's a bit optimistic =)

 

If I'm building a station in a curve on multiple levels, and a city full of custom buildings, I really need to get me a CNC router or laser cutter.. Would prefer the laster cutter, but the price .......

[The_Ghan]

10 years? That's a bit optimistic =)

 

If I'm building a station in a curve on multiple levels, and a city full of custom buildings, I really need to get me a CNC router or laser cutter.. Would prefer the laster cutter, but the price .......

 

I'm sure Dr Evil can sell you one!

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan