China HSR- two sides of a coin...

[bikkuri bahn]

Note the differences in tone between these two articles, talking about the same thing:

 

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/usa/business/2011-06/16/content_12713350.htm

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/14/world/asia/14china.html

 

But wait, this article from same China Daily as above is much more reporting and less cheerleading.  The editors must have been on lunch break...

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/cndy/2011-06/16/content_12707953.htm

[keitaro]

well we all know what happens with copy cats..... china just are not good at doing anything but making cheap imitations or in this case expensive imitations.

[cteno4]

the times just did an interesting article about china's HSR system, interesting pros and cons and side issues.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/23/business/global/23rail.html

 

cheers

 

jeff

[bikkuri bahn]

Another interesting article, now the Chinese are looking to register their patents on HSR technology:

 

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2011-06/23/content_12755947.htm

 

Alot of mistakes in this article:

 

Changes to the bogie prototype are necessary because China's railways are different from Japan's

 

Yes, they are, but...

 

For example, China's trains run on ballastless tracks, but in Japan, trains run on ballast tracks.

 

Wrong.

 

China's railway tunnels have a cross section of 100 square meters, but in Japan the railway tunnels have a cross section of 64 square meters.

 

These differences have an impact on train operations, and China could not just use the imported train as it was, he said.

 

This actually makes it easier for Chinese engineers, as wider tunnel diameters impose less technical challenges than narrow diameter ones.

 

According to Ma's estimation, more than 100 million yuan ($15 million) has been poured into experiments and innovations of new high-speed train models, an amount 10 times what the company spent on the development of a train model in the past.

 

Only 15 million?  That's a drop in the bucket.  More like 15 million to copy, er, "assimilate".  And 1.5 million to develop a  previous model?  No wonder they failed, lol.

[keitaro]

Another interesting article, now the Chinese are looking to register their patents on HSR technology:

 

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2011-06/23/content_12755947.htm

 

Alot of mistakes in this article:

 

Changes to the bogie prototype are necessary because China's railways are different from Japan's

 

Yes, they are, but...

 

For example, China's trains run on ballastless tracks, but in Japan, trains run on ballast tracks.

 

Wrong.

 

China's railway tunnels have a cross section of 100 square meters, but in Japan the railway tunnels have a cross section of 64 square meters.

 

These differences have an impact on train operations, and China could not just use the imported train as it was, he said.

 

This actually makes it easier for Chinese engineers, as wider tunnel diameters impose less technical challenges than narrow diameter ones.

 

According to Ma's estimation, more than 100 million yuan ($15 million) has been poured into experiments and innovations of new high-speed train models, an amount 10 times what the company spent on the development of a train model in the past.

 

Only 15 million?  That's a drop in the bucket.  More like 15 million to copy, er, "assimilate".  And 1.5 million to develop a  previous model?  No wonder they failed, lol.

 

lol superb post haha.

 

It screams rip off huh !

 

I bet that quote is wrong too on money invested as it would cost alot more than that even at slave labour rates. unless they paid out big yen to a spy inside japan to steal there tech.

 

Just like the china cars and stealing GM technology etc etc

[Martijn Meerts]

I don't see a problem with China "stealing" tech from other high speed trains/manufacturers. No point reinventing what's already been invented. Obviously, you shouldn't go around saying you invented something that you actually just copied :)

 

 

As for the whole anti-"made in China" sentiment around the world, I challenge them to stop using anything that's made in China, or has components in it that were made in China. Let me just say, good luck with that, you'll need it ;)

[keitaro]

It's called patent and if u want to use it you cough up royalties.

 

Something only china seems to get away with all too often.

 

Not saying don't buy china or anything just wish they wouldn't rip off crap and attempt to say it's theirs....

[Martijn Meerts]

Well, I'm pretty much against patents, especially for things that improve people's lives.. Patents these days only serve to make someone rich, and the direct consequence of stupid patents is that progress gets stagnated (because someone wants to be rich) .. Especially software patents are absolutely ridiculous.

 

A good start would be to invalidate all patents held by people/companies who haven't actually made a product based on the patent.

[bikkuri bahn]

Well, I'm pretty much against patents, especially for things that improve people's lives..

 

Tell that to people who spend years of blood, sweat, and tears (and money) to perfect a product, only to have the design stolen and sold at a cut rate price (and no guarantee of quality and/or safety).  Certainly there are special situations, like with drugs, but then you can address that with negotiation, the legal system, and generics.

[bikkuri bahn]

Interesting take on China's desire and their chances to build HSR in the United States.  Especially intriguing is China's behavior re. Saudi Arabia- I had heard a bit of scuttlebut about this, but this is the first time I have come across more specific details.  Once again, what works in sub-saharan Africa may not necessarily work elsewhere.

 

http://www.chinalawblog.com/2011/06/chinese_built_us_rail_system_tell_me_how_does_it_feel.html

 

FT blog article mentioned above, behind subcription firewall, maybe accessible via Google search:

http://tilt.ft.com/#!posts/2011-06/23526/made-in-america-by-chinese

[to2leo]

Another perspective perhaps.

 

BBC (non-American or Japanese or Chinese owned)

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13850575

China at heart of California's railway past and present

By Alastair Leithead BBC News, Truckee, California

 

Alastair Leithead explores a tunnel blasted by workers on the Nineteenth Century transcontinental railroad

 

High up in the Sierra Nevada mountains in California, half hidden by a snow drift, a disused railway tunnel is a monument to the Chinese labourers who helped build modern America in the 1860s. Now, 150 years later, the Chinese could be returning to build the next generation of US railways, but in a very different role.

 

Between 10,000 and 20,000 Chinese workers took a year to cut the Summit Tunnel, a key section of the first trans-continental railroad, through solid rock near the town of Truckee.

 

The American railroad opened up the West, spawning towns and cities all along its route.

 

But while freight still helps drive the world's biggest economy, passenger trains are often slow and unreliable.

 

In a country where an American's car is his or her castle, trains have fallen behind.

Continue reading the main story

“Start Quote

Don Davis

 

   The Chinese reputedly had some expertise in building tunnels and they were steady, reliable employees”

 

End Quote Don Davis Member, Truckee Donner Railroad Society

 

The cross-country passenger trains are notoriously late.

 

"We don't go by train very often. But I don't think I've been anywhere looking at a train schedule where suddenly it's eight hours late," said Pat Mastri and her husband Roger, waiting for the replacement bus service in Truckee.

 

"And guess what - we're not going on the train."

New US line

 

President Barack Obama has made high-speed rail a national priority, with the first line planned in California seeking to link the cities of Los Angeles and San Francisco.

 

One of the favourite bids for the project has come from a Chinese consortium, and it is China which has built more high-tech, high-speed rail links than anyone else in the last year.

 

"It's kind of funny, kind of ironic - what goes around comes around," said Don Davis from the Truckee Donner Railroad Society.

 

Inside the tunnel, with its coarsely cut rock, which was blasted and dug out by hand, he described how the labourers of 150 years ago lived under the deep snow in the bitter winters, working the whole year around.

 

"The Chinese were hired by the railroad to be labourers because most people in California at the time were gold miners, or would work for a day, have enough for a pint of whisky, would get drunk and then not come back the next day," Mr Davis said.

Chinese workers who worked on rail systems in the US in the 1800s Thousands of Chinese workers blasted and cut the Summit Tunnel in the 1860s near the town of Truckee, California

 

"The Chinese reputedly had some expertise in building tunnels and they were steady, reliable employees.

 

"They drank tea," he added.

 

The conditions were appalling and the pay worse - the Chinese were the only ones who would do it.

 

"They weren't treated well - kind of like illegal aliens today, if you will," Mr Davis said.

 

"People didn't want them around. They would burn them out of towns and things like that, but when they were working, the railroad really wanted them."

 

It was a huge feat of engineering, as will be building a new high-speed rail network across the US.

'Total reversal'

 

Animations of how the new California high-speed trains may look, based on the bullet trains used in Asia, are impressive.

 

But in times of economic crisis, engineering the trains will be expensive.

 

The Chinese bid is also offering financial incentives, as China is a country with money to spend and is particularly keen to break into this money-making US market.

A rendering of what the new California rail system will look like The new rail line in California will link the cities of San Francisco and Los Angeles

 

However, Professor Richard White from Stanford University has studied the history of the railroads and is sceptical of whether this new line will be built.

 

"If this happens, which sometimes I have grave doubts about, it would be an almost total reversal from 150 years ago," Mr White said.

 

"What you had then was American capital, American technology and cheap Chinese labour," he added.

 

"The way they are talking about building it now will be American labour laying the tracks, but heavy investments in Chinese technology and even trying to get inputs of Chinese capital.

 

"It's as if the Pacific has suddenly switched over in 150 years."

 

It's a story that tells a lot about the changing world order.

 

California may have the largest Chinese population outside Asia, but it doesn't mean Americans aren't frightened of the speed of change.

[to2leo]

China is going through the same teething issues as Japan or Korea in regards to quality and patent issues back in the days.  My dad worked for Canon then Ricoh for a total of 30+ years.

 

Look at Samsung, Hyundai, Toyota, Canon or Ricoh now.

 

Patent works both ways too.  Case in point, is it right that many pharmaceutical companies created patents for themselves by simply extracting the medical knowledge from natives in the Amazon who view knowledge should be shared?

[cteno4]

this historian in the article is pretty gentle on California's treatment of chinese workers in the 19th century. it was much much worse than described and they were not just the illegal aliens of the time. many were impressed into service from china, others had large 'immigration' debts. once at the job they had little choice but to do it. 'white' workers (other immigrants that were looked down upon, but still were 'white') could walk away from the job if it got too dangerous. the chinese could be treated pretty much like animals and get away with it. they were put into the most dangerous jobs as they were seen to be the most expendable then. the worst conditions to day in the us for illegal immigrants was pretty much common place then for the chinese and much worse happened.

 

jeff

[Guest ___]

China’s brand new Beijing to Shanghai high-speed rail line had a rough first month, experiencing multiple power outages that have stalled some trains on the tracks. The disruptions have led to some passengers waiting on a stalled train while engineers scrambled to restore service.  In a July 13 incident, an electrical transformer malfunctioned dropping the top speed to 100 mph; operators were forced to transfer passengers to another train capable of reaching top speeds rather than risk disrupting the entire network. China’s Railway Ministry has attributed the problem to summer thunderstorms and high winds. [National Assn. of Railroad Passengers, 7-15-11]

[keitaro]

China’s Railway Ministry has attributed the problem to summer thunderstorms and high winds. [National Assn. of Railroad Passengers, 7-15-11]

 

they forgot to add poor copy of japanese tech and rush job construction

[linkey]

Now bikkuri bahn, Stop giving the Chinese ideas lol. Of course they are going to say that their technology is better, it's faulty, cheap and doesn't go through the proper safety requirements as they want to be seen to be a big country and able to be showing no faults at all.

 

There has come a point where (not being biased or racist) I do have reservations if I want to go on any Chinese mode of transportation! After the recent events of the rail distater and how the lower class of chinese people have ben treated and how the Chinese Government is forcing who the people can use the internet, Skype or any social media. It's a wonder of why wouldn't they be happy to accept international standards and to see that if their system has little to minor faults to get them and work on them to improve their ability to run.

 

Oh hang on that might be too hard for them to do that?

[bill937ca]

Do China's HSR trains share the line with older conventional trains?  There's a photo in today's Globe & Mail that shows a crash with an HSR train and a Soviet looking electric locomotive. No dedicated HSR line?

 

This is the photo:

 

[Nozomi4ever]

Do China's HSR trains share the line with older conventional trains?  There's a photo in today's Globe & Mail that shows a crash with an HSR train and a Soviet looking electric locomotive. No dedicated HSR line?

 

This is the photo:

 

 

No. That is a dedicated line. The locomotive is on the right to assist the effort only.