Amtrak no-ride list?

[bikkuri bahn]

Oh boy, before we know it, we'll be having security theater on the trains.  United States of paranoia...

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/08/us-security-trains-idUSTRE7472CF20110508

[disturbman]

Yeah and then they will have to secure all the track mileage and maybe implement a no-drive list for highways because it could be easy to plan a terror attack on the highway system. A car, a bomb, a rush hour and maybe some sort of oil truck near by. I can also envision of a no-ride list in the subway or a no-walk list for pedestrian on crowed plazas and streets.

[Mudkip Orange]

Yeah this is insanely dumb.

[Guest ___]

Without going in to details, it's not really that dumb. From DHS emails I received as VFC in my Coast Guard unit this week, DHS already has unofficial raised the terror threat level for all transport infrastructure based on what is felt to be credible information, and not referring to draft plans from Bin Laden's PC either. US Coast Guard, Res, Aux, Civilian are in "ready-state" as well as the DoD. From the ALCOAST notice that went out this week, sounds like a bee's nest is really stirred up. Now as to how they can implement this on Amtrak, that's going to be tough cause as it stands there are a lot of unmanned station where you buy your ticket on train, and I'm not sure how even with wifi or 3G a handheld reader linked to a network to confirm idents and a no-ride list could be implemented.

 

It would be far easier to implement this on Amtrak than a mass transit agency or possibly commuter rail. Already in DC since the attacks in Madrid, you can get randomly screen at Union Station DC, or Penn in Baltimore, New Carolton and other major stations along the NEC. The problem with this is any said terrorist would get around it by simply inflicting damage along the miles of track not onboard a train. To further state how serious DHA, TSA and other LE and intel groups are taking this at the moment, while fanning yesterday I saw for the first time in a very long time, LE at Point of Rocks Station, and along several other areas along e Met and Cumbo subs. Area that are literally in the middle of nowhere and a ways out from DC in WV countryside.

 

Note, that thanks to TSA screening, it is harder for terrorists to to hit the planes now, so they are going to look to the next easiest target. You guys can make fun of it all you want, but hell or high water terrorist takes out an Acela train on the NEC, and you all know well enough, you're going to be right on the bandwagon bitching and demanding to know the government screwed up and did nothing to prevent it. Just like everyone else in this country did pre-9/11. This is one of those things as an American I get so frustrated about. The government is damned if you do, and damned if you don't.

 

With that said, back to getting my bloody staff report done as my CO is going to miss the staff meeting this week. I had to call off work for the wire service this week to cover for a CG work!

[disturbman]

Aaron. I maintain one thing, to implement controls on Amtrack trains is stupid because you don't close any gaps in security. There is far easier and more impressive targets at hand than an Acela. Just looked at what happened in Paris in 1995, in Madrid in 2003 and London in 2005, those terrorists targeted subway networks not national rail networks. That's the thing, you can also easily leave an abandon bag in an open public place.

 

Planes are different, they are very symbolic and what happen during 9/11 (crashing planes into buildings) was very special and impressive. That's something you can't reproduce with a train. it doesn't really make sense to upgrade security before boarding if the whole transit system is vulnerable or if the routes are also vulnerable.

 

I've lived in a city and a country that has suffer from several bomb attacks. Security has been raised after 1995 but authorities never got to the point where they had to order to implement a screening process (airport style) to board on trains. If terrorists are ready to strike, they will... they just need an easy and valuable target. The only way to fight terrorism in those case is actually by intelligence and police work with a little help of some other things like prevention (in Paris all garbage bags are since then transparent, they have closed the gaps under the seat so nobody can leave anything there and people are asked to report any abandoned items). France was not struck since 1995 so I think those process work. But you'll never able to cover every angle. You always have gaps and failure in security... the only way to avoid it is to become a police state but that's not wishable.

 

Just look at the incident involving the TGV. In 1983 Carlos put a bomb in a TGV and a couple of years ago some political group put bombs on the TGV tracks. If you start to screen people boarding the Acela, the threat will just move somewhere else. At one point you have to decide to live with the risk and balance the pros and the cons of a tight security on peoples movement. I don't think that here, this is worth the hassle and the price.

[Mudkip Orange]

Without going in to details, it's not really that dumb.

 

Yeah, it is.

 

You say we've got "credible information"? There's an "increased risk"? Fantastic. Have guys out inspecting the Susquehanna River Bridge every 6 hours. Run a bomb-sniffing robot through the Baltimore tunnels in between trains. Whatever. If we need to do something so we can feel like we're "doing something," there's steps we can take to increase security that don't restrict movement any more than we already have.

 

But a no-ride list is stupid and counterproductive. Why? Well, three reasons.

 

(i) The no-fly list is stupid and counterproductive. There's no way to find out why your name was put on it. There's no way to know for sure that you're off it. It hasn't stopped any of the high-profile plots (the "underwear bomber," et al) of the last few years.

 

And with no due process whatsoever, it's rife for abuse. In one case we stuck a bunch of American citizens on the no-fly list while they were in Yemen, thus denying them the right of return. When they contacted the American embassy they were interrogated by the FBI, and offered a trade; become an FBI informant in exchange for the right to fly home. We've even locked out ex-servicemen - guys who fought for our their country - because their names got put on the list while they were overseas. Here, have some reading material:

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/29/AR2010062904339.html

http://www.aclu.org/national-security/latif-et-al-v-holder-et-al-aclu-challenges-government-no-fly-list

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/rss/article/197322/4/No-Fly-List-Strands-Florida-Man

 

 

(ii) You can't actually secure trains. I mean this is obvious but it needs to be repeated. Planes stop at major destinations, and are airborne in between, which makes for a fixed set of points for a threat to occur. Trains stop at minor destinations - unmanned stops, flag stops, etc - and are in continuous contact with the ground. This means that the set of potential threat points are effectively infinite. Finally,

 

 

(iii) Other countries that have actually experienced rail-based terrorism haven't responded with this kind of pants-wetting. Spain experienced it with the 2004 bombings in Madrid. The UK saw it in 2005. Even Japan has seen rail-terrorism, when the Aum Shinrikyo cult gassed the Tokyo Metro in '95. In no case did any of these countries institute a kafkaesque "no ride list" which refuses to disclose whether or not you're actually on the list or why. Nope, that's just us.

 

 

Moreover I take great issue with this strawman:

you're going to be right on the bandwagon bitching and demanding to know the government screwed up and did nothing to prevent it

'the hell do you know? When the underwear bomber set his pants on fire in '09, my response was not "the government should've prevented this." My response was "oh great, this'll be used as justification for further invasive security." And indeed it was; witness the proliferation of rapescan machines where once there were simple metal detectors. Likewise, my response in the months after 9/11 was not "the government should've prevented this," my response was "what exactly does Iraq have to do with Al Qaeda?"

 

You gotta put your straw men back in the attic with the Christmas decorations from last year, and debate Security Theater on the merits. And on the merits, it fails both common sense, human rights, and basic empirical analysis. It really only works as a jobs program; but surely we could find something more productive for those 60,000 people to do...