An Urban Tram/Bus Coffee-Table Layout

[cteno4]

a couple of years ago i played a lot with my faller bus with wire under chipboard to see what sort of interesting things it could do. you could make some pretty tight turns but it needed an easement to do it well and consistently, unfortunately i didnt take notes or pictures and then i got distracted with other things (oooh bright shiny object syndrome) so i cant remember exactly what the shape was that made it look more like it was turning a normal street corner. only took an evening though of fiddling to figure it out. i wanted to have a bus looping on my ttrak street car modules (you can use scotch tape to bridge the module gaps for the bus!)

 

this is my only problem with using the tomytec roads as they are not in chunks that really look like most street corners out there.

 

i think if i ever do implement the bus ill probably do my own streets and wire. its good to hear that the tomytec steering magnet is more powerful than the faller one!

 

cheers

 

jeff

[KenS]

Although I like the elevated highway, I may need to give up on it.  For some reason, even though earlier testing showed negligible slip on a 20% slope, I'm now seeing much more.  I set up an oval with three straights on the side and a 2.25" climb (about a 15% slope), and both buses had serious slip problems. Lengthening the side to four straights (12.5% slope) didn't help.  And oddly, it was after it made the curve and hit the straight where it had problems.  I thought it might be the specific roadway sections, but swapping them with others (and wiping them down to remove any dust) didn't help.

 

It may be that my earlier testing was entirely on a straight, and this has the bus coming out of a curve, so it's probably moving slower.  But the problem doesn't seem to set in until the bus has straightened out, which isn't what I'd expect if that were the cause. And both buses are equally affected (and one has nearly new batteries) so I don't think it's a power problem or something to do with the individual bus.

 

Rich's variation that keeps things level is looking pretty attractive right now.

 

If I do go for level, I may put a viaduct at the back (or near the back) to represent an elevated Shinkansen line.  Probably no place to fit any kind of station. Although I'll give that some thought; a commuter/tram/bus station at the back would be cool, even without actual commuter trains.

[KenS]

Have you tried laying your own bus track yet to see if you can get the buses going round tighter more realistic curves?

Will be watching with great interest.

 

For this layout, I want to use entirely pre-made roadway.  Part of my goal here is seeing what I can do with maximum use of out-of-the-box ready-to-use stuff.

 

For the bus station on my main layout, I do plan to lay my own roads, and thus will need to do my own wire there.  Experimenting with that is likely a late summer or fall activity (which probably means winter the way my time estimates tend to be); too many other things need attention first there.

[disturbman]

After seeing this last track plan I'm feeling a bit concerned, are you sure you will have enough space to include any kind of scenery? ;)

[KenS]

Well, the city is the scenery, but there is a bit of "too much track" syndrome going on here.  I can't really avoid that given the space constraint I've set myself and the desire for two loops (the loop+linear idea just isn't sparking my imagination). But part of the problem is the regularity of the track, all those squarish ovals within ovals. Something with more angles is needed.

 

I tried a flat track plan along the lines of Rich's plan, but didn't like it.  Then I tried an under-the-viaduct plan, and the best I could come up with was the V5 plan below, which just wasn't working out.  So I decided to try something a little different, and ended up with the V6 plan below.  This has more room on the right side for buildings with small streets/alleys between them, and a better plaza on the left, plus an angled avenue with both tram and bus in the back.

 

Still not sure that's it, but it's feeling better.

[Hobby Dreamer]

Hi Ken,

 

I'm really liking V6 - its a lot of progress from the original, given the constraints.

 

There was great feedback from the forum, as always. 

 

Cheers

Rick

[cteno4]

ken,

 

i like V6, like you say in such a tiny space its easy for the track to take over, but v6 does not have the loop tee loop feel to it as much!

 

cheers

 

jeff

[rpierce000]

I like V6 a LOT, but V5 would be cool if you are going to "paste" it into a large layout later. Not enough layouts have a Tram/Bus/Heavy Rail junction and with a station on that viaduct you would have that.

 

Another option, and this is a BIT crazy, is to go subway. I have NO idea how much space a helix would take up at tram radii, but what if you had a 103 helix down to a second level for a larger storage yard or even "subway" access to a lower level of heavy subway like your V5 but inverted?

 

Just spitballing....

[KenS]

Another option, and this is a BIT crazy, is to go subway. I have NO idea how much space a helix would take up at tram radii, but what if you had a 103 helix down to a second level for a larger storage yard or even "subway" access to a lower level of heavy subway like your V5 but inverted?

 

A helix is ultimately controlled by grade, not radius.

 

While a tram can probably negotiate a steeper grade than a freight train or ten-car passenger consist, that's still not a lot.  You get about 6 1/4" of run per loop for every inch of radius. Asuming you need about 2" of rise (5 cm) per loop (which would require fairly thin construction), a 4% grade needs to run 50" (1.27m) each loop.  That works out to an 8" radius (~20cm).  If a 6% grade could be used, the run would be 33 1/3", and the radius 5 1/4" (13.5 cm), but that might be pushing it for a grade on a curve. So R140 track is probably too sharp, but R177 or greater is probably needed.

 

A 103mm radius (4") helix would have a run of 25" (64cm) per loop. A 2" (5 cm) rise in that run would be 8%, which is likely too steep.

 

So I could fit a helix, assuming the trams would cooperate, but it would occupy about a third of the layout.

 

Another way to do it is an oval "helix" across the back.  There you've got ~100 inches per loop, even if you use R103 curves at the ends, so even a 2% grade becomes practical. But even with 103mm curves you're loosing 8" off the back of at least 1/2 the layout (4% grade).  It's a bit more efficient, but still a big chunk or real-estate.

 

It's something to think about, but probably a bit much for this layout.  I'm also doing a subway on my big layout, so another one is less interesting.

 

I do like the idea of re-using this is a future around-the-wall layout, and that's a reason to have something like a viaduct, but at least so far that would seem to severely limit my design options.

[disturbman]

Really like the V6 but still think it could use some more tweaking. I was wondering if you could decouple the tram/bus loops on the right side. You could maybe insert the buildings on the far right between the bus and tram tracks and have the trams run on balasted tracks instead of roadbeded ones there.

 

I was also wondering what would happened if the yard was on the blue loop and not on the green one.

 

Well. I know you'll keep playing around and come up with something even more interesting.

[KenS]

The decoupling idea was a very good one. That three-lane highway just looked wrong, but a one-lane (37mm is closer to two lanes anyway) street looks much better, or at least I think it will from the track-plan.  I didn't swap the yard around though.  I can't see a way to do it without losing the diagonal avenue, and I like that feature. The track-plan is beginning to feel close to done, and I'm eager to get started trying it out.

 

And this afternoon, the postman brought me a present: a really large box of track (photo below).  It's probably not everything I'll need, but it's a lot of it, and enough to get started with trying things out in 3D.

 

The wooden platform the track is on is the layout base.  Yet another of my 2x4 plywood handy-panel and 1x3 pine boxes.  It just needs a coat of primer to seal the wood (that's drying as I type) and I can start playing with it.

[disturbman]

This last track plan does look better than the previous ones. Now we have to wait for your 3D try outs.

[KenS]

Well, Rail Modeler wasn't lying about the problem on the alignment of the inner tram loop.  I need a short bit (~30mm) of straight track to close the circuit, which isn't a size Tomix makes as far as I know, and even then it's not quite in the right place.  I may need to revise the track plan to deal with the alignment issue.

 

I also need to order some 70mm wide tram track (HS is presently sold out so I didn't include any in my recent order from them). 

 

And until my additional bus sets come in (August?) I'm way short of track for the bus line, although I was able to check out parts of it.

 

But on the plus side, the overall look is about what I was expecting, the scale of the buildings to the track/road between them looks reasonable, and the outer loop went together just fine (not surprising, as it's just an oval).

 

And one of my Modemo Setagaya line 300 Series trams has made a loop of the outer line to inaugurate the layout.  It's progress.

[rpierce000]

My wholesaler is telling me that shorter Wide Tram track will not be out until at least mid June. Apparently it was more popular than they anticipated and sold a lot when the bus systems came out.

 

The bus system is re releasing as well.

[disturbman]

Nice!

 

Well. For the moment, you could simply order regular Fine Track for mimicking the bus loop and to try to fill the gaps.

 

One bad note (for me), the three lane road is not at all to my taste. It's too heavy to the eye and actually doesn't look very real/urban to me. I don't understand how the road system is supposed to work like that. I then wonder if you wouldn't be better modelling a double bus loop and a single tram line on normal ballasted track. Something inspired by the Enoshima.

 

Sorry for the criticism, I do like the project and what you have come up with. :)

[KenS]

I may be able to use ordinary fine-track to correct the gap on the straight section, and there are several short fine-track sizes.  I'm going to order some and play with them.

 

The front "avenue" is too wide (111mm is 16.65m is 54.6 feet, or more than four lanes even for a highway). But I'm thinking a fence and some scenery can make the bus lane look like a separate street briefly paralleling the main one, which would then be smaller.

 

A differing opinion isn't criticism, or at least not if offered constructively.  In any case, I asked for opinions, so any opinion is good.  Even if I don't agree with it, I may learn something from it.  And in this case, at least partially, I do agree.

 

Yeah, my HS order for the bus system shows August as the expected date.  I can hope the wide tram track shows up sooner (June would be nice), but the layout isn't going to be completed until then at least.  Which gives me more time to dither about the track plan, something I excel at. 

 

One thing that is interesting.  On the underside of the wide tram casting, in the center, is a groove with periodic plastic nubs that look like they could hold the bus guidewire in place.  And it turns out that the nickle-silver alloy used in the rails doesn't attract the bus guide magnet.  So, in theory, you could use one lane for both bus and tram, although having some way to get the bus in and out would be needed. 

 

It shouldn't be too hard to hack this up with some steel wire of the appropriate diameter for that matter. I don't think I'd use that for this layout, since it goes against the "do it with out-of-the-box" materials approach I wanted to use. But it's something I'll think about.

[Hobby Dreamer]

The front "avenue" is too wide (111mm is 16.65m is 54.6 feet, or more than four lanes even for a highway). But I'm thinking a fence and some scenery can make the bus lane look like a separate street briefly paralleling the main one, which would then be smaller.

 

Great idea Ken!

 

I have to admit that I get frustrated with the current tram track offerings. I like it when trams pass by each other at close proximity but the major sore point is that both track systems get wide fast. And despite that tremendous road width there is no place for road vehicles!

 

You did a great job designing your layout, and despite the road width you have several interesting sections. Maybe foliage/scenery is a good way to detract.

 

Rick

[KenS]

I came up with another track plan.  This one changes the outer loop into something like a small rail line (probably limited to a 1-2 car commuter train, if I can get one to navigate a 177mm curve) and pushes the "avenue with a median strip" to the front, and the "transit plaza" to the back, while integrating that with a dual-track dummy line run across the back.

 

It's got a lot of pluses, not least of which is that the tracks all line up. But I'm losing the "tram running between buildings" aspect, since there's no room for buildings outside the tram loop (and making the loop smaller kills the avenue). So I'm not sure I really like this one.

[scott]

Yeah, I dunno--I like the idea, but I'm not sure it works as well as V6.

[Mudkip Orange]

I like it.

 

Now you have a bus loop in the shape of a bus window.

[Hobby Dreamer]

The idea of a train station is interesting - a good focal point.. The best part of fixed track is that its easy to change.

[scott]

Just a thought, but maybe V6 is best if you want to have the bus system, and a variant of this most recent would be better for heavy rail and tram combined,  but without the bus. (I'd rather have the latter myself, but this isn't my layout.  )

[KenS]

After thinking it over a long time, I've decided to go with a variant of the "bus window" track plan (below).  The only real change is that the bus roadway is shortened a bit so that it isn't adjacent to the track at the left side.  This brings the bus across the corner of the planned transit plaza (I'll build a bus station on that side) but avoids the "bus always next to track" problem, at least somewhat.

 

I'm also going to make the outer loop a "commuter" line, probably using a one-car Series 125 EMU, if it will navigate a 177mm curve. I'll have to wait until the preorder comes in, which means September.  But I'll start construction before that and just switch to some other car if it doesn't work.  I'm also going to make the outer loop signaled using Tomix's signals to add a bit more activity (and because I'm curious how well they work).  I've already picked up a TCS-equipped Tomix power pack for that purpose.

 

I don't have all the track I need, but I mocked it up with what I have and placed a few buildings and it looks reasonable. An order for a bunch of finetrack just went out to BTTrains (I've ordered from them once before) and I need to send HS an order for some Tomix signals shortly. Actual construction will begin once I have those in hand.

[FFISKIV]

I too have considered the bus route but wanted to incorporate it into my unitram layout somehow. Do you think the magnets are strong enough to work thru the unitram plates?  Otherwise I fear I'll have to build a 2nd layout which I dont mind but my wife will as my current layout takes up most of one room already. I like your designs, and wish you luck.

[KenS]

I think the control magnets would (they're quite strong).  The question is going to depend on the steering magnet, which is smaller.  And also on the thickness of the Kato plate and the size (thickness) of the guide wire you use.  The Tomix wire is set into a notch in the underside of the plate, so it's closer to the surface than it might otherwise be, but it's not the same as a wire set into the top (I've read of problems with Tomix buses and Faller surface-mounted wires).

 

I think the only way to know for sure is to test it, and maybe try different-size wires.

 

Thanks for the comments on the tram layout. Construction started this weekend (another benefit of it not being my Project Party project).