Kato's annoying super-elevated curves - What to do?

[rankodd]

Hi!

 

I'm in the midst of planning my permanent layout, and I've run into a bit of an issue. My plan has been influenced by Setsugaya and Enoshima layouts, and is for a 3-layer layout with an elevated viaduct for Shinkansen, double track main line, and underground Ochanomizu-subway-like line.

 

Now, I don't have a huge amount of space. About 12', with an additional ~3.5' "L", and as it's an "around the wall" style, the maximum practical depth is 3'. Second concern is that I have spent a fair bit on getting a complete set of the Kato Viaduct station for the elevated line.

 

My big issue is, Kato went and canned their non-superelevated double track viaduct pieces, severely limiting the flexibility of the design. As far as I can tell, you're stuck with an oval, and the 414/381 curves are too big to allow me to use the viaduct station, while the 315/282 are too tight for running Shinkansen (I've got a Kato n500 and E5, both are minimum r315)

 

Apparently it's possible to use side-by-side pairs of single track viaduct to make a dual track with more flexible curves, but how proto-typical is this? I don't think I've ever seen a picture of anything like it, and if I do it that way, are there any additional problems I'm going to run into?

 

Any ideas? The track plans are tenative, but I've managed to squeeze in everything that I wanted to.

 

Pic 1: Planned Elevated line, using side-by-side single track viaduct

pic 2: Planned Main line

pic 3: Combined Elevated and Main

pic 4: Super-elevated roundy-round

[Mudkip Orange]

the 414/381 curves are too big to allow me to use the viaduct station

The old Kato viaduct track (non-superelevated) was also 381/414, so you haven't lost anything. Also, the doubletrack viaduct was only ever available in 45-degree turns, so there isn't anything you could do with it that you can't now do with the superelevation. A 45-degree turn is 2x 22.5 cant pieces, a 90-degree is 2x cant pieces plus one full 45-degree superelevated, etc.

[rankodd]

Huh. I was under the impression, looking at XTrackCad's selection, that the old double viaduct was more flexible, but I was wrong. I also missed the 2 x approach track for 45 degrees.

 

So, that begs the question - just why is Kato's double viaduct selection so limited? The single viaduct seems to have everything the regular track does except a 64mm piece....

 

Also, how bad do you think that side-by-side single viaduct is going to look?

[Mudkip Orange]

So, that begs the question - just why is Kato's double viaduct selection so limited?

 

Why is Kato's turnout selection so limited? Why are there only 15- and 90-degree crossovers? Why do we drive on a parkway and park in a driveway?

 

If I was going to use the single-track viaduct to make a double track, I'd leave out one radius - for instance, an R381 and an R315. There's lots of places where this situation exists, either because it was originally a singletrack line that was later twinned, or because the tracks are separating in advance of a station platform / pocket track / etc.

[to2leo]

Not meant to add oil to the flame but the single viaduct track sides can hinder the type of trains you are able to run across without derailing.  This is especially true if you have long low floor trains from Kato USA and Kato-Hobbytrain (Europe).  For Japanese stock, you are safe.

[rankodd]

Not meant to add oil to the flame but the single viaduct track sides can hinder the type of trains you are able to run across without derailing.  This is especially true if you have long low floor trains from Kato USA and Kato-Hobbytrain (Europe).  For Japanese stock, you are safe.

 

 

I'm safe - 100% Japanese rolling stock. My worst train is likely to be the E5. If I really want something else, I can run it on the main line, but it's unlikely.

[cteno4]

Rankodd,

 

if you decide you want to use the older non elevated kato double viaduct curves, i do have some of these new here that im not using and could part with at a discount price.

 

cheers

 

jeff

[rankodd]

Sounds very interesting - what would you be willing to part with?

[Skvo]

Also, the doubletrack viaduct was only ever available in 45-degree turns, so there isn't anything you could do with it that you can't now do with the superelevation. A 45-degree turn is 2x 22.5 cant pieces, a 90-degree is 2x cant pieces plus one full 45-degree superelevated, etc.

As part of KATO Double Track Variation Set 12 are:

Concrete Tie Double Track Viaduct Superelevated Curve R414/381mm-22.5º (WR414/381-22.5VPC) - 4pcs

Concrete Tie Double Track Viaduct Superelevated Easement Curve Left R414/381mm-22.5º (WR414/381VPCAL) -2pcs

Concrete Tie Double Track Viaduct Superelevated Easement Curve Right R414/381mm-22.5º (WR414/381VPCAR) - 2pcs

 

Therefore, viaduct angles available : 45º, 67.5º, 90º, 112.5º, etc...

[David]

It's not well labeled in that list, but the 22.5 degree curve is the transition curve which takes the rails from flat on one end to super elevated on the other. So they only fit (and are required to make the rails meet up) at the start and end of a super elevated curve.

[Skvo]

So they only fit (and are required to make the rails meet up) at the start and end of a super elevated curve.

I have a Kato set number 12.

The four 22.5 degree curve - is the transition from flat to super elevated.

And the four 22.5 degree curve has a super elevated at both ends.

[David]

Sorry, my mistake. I must be confusing the viaduct with the ground track.

[rankodd]

So they only fit (and are required to make the rails meet up) at the start and end of a super elevated curve.

I have a Kato set number 12.

The four 22.5 degree curve - is the transition from flat to super elevated.

And the four 22.5 degree curve has a super elevated at both ends.

 

 

It's hysterical how Kato only includes some types of track in their kits, and not available separately.  :BangHead:

[Takahama Trainwatcher]

Kato has only produced double track superelevated (cant) curves. Tomix had single track superelevated (cant) curves (1743, 1744, 1753, 1754). According to Hobbysearch (http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10089686) the Tomix versions are a terminated product line.

Does this mean there is no single track superelevated curve currently in production for Japanese models?

[mrp]

According to Hobbysearch (http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10089686) the Tomix versions are a terminated product line.

 

I've noticed that Tomix has been switching a lot of their track packaging from the old bubble packs to cardboard boxes containing more individual pieces.  Is this the same CR(L) 391-22.5-WP available in the new packaging here?

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10312219

Edited July 23, 2016 by mrp

[Takahama Trainwatcher]

Ahah, that looks like the same track. Thanks for spotting that. Going through some old blogs (circa 2009), hopes had been high that Kato would do the single track versions, but that does not seem to have eventuated.

[katoftw]

Yeah all Tomix's wide track is super elevated.

 

I have seen blogs etc about people cutting up the Kato double tracks with easy with a little ballast added to hide cutting.

[Kb4iuj]

It's shame you don't put in a helix and have your own trains go up to a second level or three. With about 10" to 12" inches for landscape and trackage. Granted you'll have a ton of curves investment. But, more creative space to work on your layout once you get the trackage down. I myself am at that junction (something to work on over winter) for the current summer I'm building modules of 36" to 48" inches in length by 21" inches wide for high speed Shinkansen service. Hence, in my cold frame garden house I'm gonna have a huge straight away.... In time. It's 96' long... So I'm thing about 60' in length, this will be just for novelty's sake and temporary. Thus, something that can be slipped in place on a bi-level layout.

[Quetz]

Takahama, I recently cut a Kato double superelevated 180 degree curve in half and filed down the cut edge to create a diy single track to fit through a small gap. I know it's wasteful but at least it's possible & I suppose I've still got the other half if I ever need it  :)

[nah00]

Kind of makes me wish the double-track pieces just clipped together and you could take them apart if you wanted to. 

[toc36]

Rankodd,

 

if you decide you want to use the older non elevated kato double viaduct curves, i do have some of these new here that im not using and could part with at a discount price.

 

cheers

 

jeff

Jeff,

 

I don't want to create a bidding war but if Rankodd doesn't bite, I'd be very interested in buying what you got.

 

Mark

[katoftw]

5.5 years ago?

[toc36]

OH,

 

Did look at the dates......................

[cteno4]

Actually do still have them, but will be holding onto them as harder to get these days.

 

Jeff

[toc36]

RATS!!!

 

They are a treasure now.  I just bought 2 packs on Ebay.  

 

Mark