DCC Setup and accessory power supplies (kato crossover)

[Spaceman Spiff]

Hi, I just started to lay down track and wiring for my layout and have some questions. I have a Digitrax DCC system- Dsc 100 Station and a PS515 Power Supply (5 amps). I don't imagine running more than a few locomotives at a time but you never. I will have 3 to 4 Kato 20210 cross overs with the Kato 24842 Unitrack DC Convertor. I don't know how many accessories I will have down the road. I am assuming that I should get another power supply to run the crossover switches and future accessories. With that being the case what should I get? 

 

Something like a Digitrax ps2012:

 

http://www.digitrax.com/prd_ps_ps2012.php

 

or something cheap and basic like this:

 

http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/Athearn-9997-Trainpak-Power-Pack-p/ath-9997.htm

 

Any suggestions or comments greatly appreciated.

 

Spiff

[CaptOblivious]

Search eBay for "12V laptop supply" (I presume you want 12V?) Cheap, lots of current available, nothing extra :D Just cut off the business end, and apply to a screw terminal or what have you.

[David]

One question, you aren't mentioning the blue turnout control box this time. Have you thought about maybe controlling the crossovers with DCC instead (there are buttons on the Digitrax throttle for controlling turnouts). If so then a DS64 with the optional power adapter (rather then powering it from the rails) would work. I can control 4 turnouts (either Kato 2 wire solenoids or Atlas 3 wire motors), and can handle the amp load from the Kato double crossover.

 

http://www.digitrax.com/prd_statdec_ds64.php

[Spaceman Spiff]

Thanks for the replies.

 

Yes I am looking to control those blue Kato switches. If I use the DS64 would I be able control them without the throttle also? For the actual wiring is it as sims as taking the wires from the crossover and attaching them to the ds64?

 

Spiff

[KenS]

If you just want to power the blue switches, and you'll only throw one at a time, a small power supply like the Digitrax PS14 (14V, 300mA output) should do the job. Note that the Athern power pack only has an AC accessory output, and you need DC. Kato's own power pack as a 12V DC accessory output. However, Kato make a converter you can connect to an AC accessory output to power the blue switches.

 

As the others said, consider use of the DS64.  You can initially power that off the track to save money, and if power becomes a problem (and with a 5 Amp supply it won't unless you have a really big layout with lots of trains and accessories) you can add a separate supply then. For Kato's #6 switches, you can also use the DS51K1 and install it inside the switch itself (doesn't work with the crossover though). There's a thread here about that.

 

The PS2012 is nice (I have one), but seriously oversized for anything short of a major club layout.

[David]

If you just want to power the blue switches, and you'll only throw one at a time, a small power supply like the Digitrax PS14 (14V, 300mA output) should do the job. Note that the Athern power pack only has an AC accessory output, and you need DC. Kato's own power pack as a 12V DC accessory output. However, Kato make a converter you can connect to an AC accessory output to power the blue switches.

 

As the others said, consider use of the DS64.  You can initially power that off the track to save money, and if power becomes a problem (and with a 5 Amp supply it won't unless you have a really big layout with lots of trains and accessories) you can add a separate supply then. For Kato's #6 switches, you can also use the DS51K1 and install it inside the switch itself (doesn't work with the crossover though). There's a thread here about that.

 

The PS2012 is nice (I have one), but seriously oversized for anything short of a major club layout.

 

 

Keep in mind that he is specifically using the double crossovers, which draw a peak current of much more then 300mA (it's 4 solenoids activated at once). This is why the double crossover will blow the little DS51K1 decoder which is only rated for 500mA.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Thanks for the replies. For the moment I will use the Kato blue switches but down the road I will end up switching them out for something less bulky. So should I get a digitrax booster for just the accessories instead of the ds64?

 

Spiff

[David]

Thanks for the replies. For the moment I will use the Kato blue switches but down the road I will end up switching them out for something less bulky. So should I get a digitrax booster for just the accessories instead of the ds64?

 

Spiff

 

No. They are two seperate things.

 

The DS64 is a controller. It replaces the blue switch boxes. Neither of them has power alone. Neither of them is a replacement for a booster.

 

1. You need something to control the switch. Such as a DS64, blue switch box or home made momentary switch.

 

2. You need something to supply the controller with power. The DS64 can use a power adapter or it can be connected to the rails. If it connected to the rails you'll need to be sure your DCC command station/booster has enough spare amps to prevent an overload when you flip a switch. The blue switchbox can be powered by the Kato throttle, or using the Kato AC/DC adapter to power it from something else that provides between 12 and 16V - another power packs accessory terminals, a laptop power adapter with enough amps, or even the rails (again, must be enough free amps on the DCC system).

[Spaceman Spiff]

Thanks again for explaining it to me like a 13 year old :).  What do you guys recommend I should use for for accessory power? In regards to the control portion is the DS64 easy to use via the throttle? My 9 & 12 year old kids will hopefully run with and me and need something easy to use.

 

Spiff

[David]

Sorry if that came across wrong, I thought I was pushing product names without giving any of the background of what they actually do.

 

Controlling turnouts from the Digitrax throttle involves pressing the button marked 'switch', entering a switch number (or leaving the last one entered) and then pressing either the "t" or "c" button to throw or close the switch. The DS64 supports programming "routes", so pressing "c" on the throttle might orient several turnouts at once. You'd need to read the manual on Digitrax's site for information on how much you can do with routes, as I've never programmed them myself.

[Spaceman Spiff]

No need to apologize David, thanks again for your invaluable help!

 

Spiff

[KenS]

Keep in mind that he is specifically using the double crossovers, which draw a peak current of much more then 300mA (it's 4 solenoids activated at once). This is why the double crossover will blow the little DS51K1 decoder which is only rated for 500mA.

 

Good point.  The crossover can be thrown by the DS64, which can be powered be a PS14.  But it's likely that the DS64 is storing power (e.g., in a capacitor) to provide the spike that throws the turnout.

 

The Kato power pack is powered by a 1.5A power supply, so that might be sufficient. But since Kato's system is designed to support these turnouts, it could also be equipped with power storage for this purpose.

 

I think the safe answer is to use something designed for the purpose, like the Kato power pack or the DS64.

 

Using a DS64 requires a throttle that supports controlling accessories (i.e., not the UT4).  To operate one with a DT400 series throttle you hit the SWCH key, enter a number (the DS64 output address, eg. 123) then hit either the "t" (thrown) or "c" (closed) key.

 

The DS64 can have a pair of manual momentary switches wired to it for each of the four outputs (one output will throw the entire crossover), so you could hook up switches (although I don't think the blue switches have enough wires to be used) to allow kids who find entering an address to throw a crossing too difficult.

[David]

Good point.  The crossover can be thrown by the DS64, which can be powered be a PS14.  But it's likely that the DS64 is storing power (e.g., in a capacitor) to provide the spike that throws the turnout.

 

 

I was looking into this earlier to figure out the exact amp requirements. It seems the DS64 does in fact use charged capacitors to throw switches rather then pull the current directly. Because of this it seems like you could power a DS64 using just the track power from a DCS100 and still be able to operate a dozen or two locomotives safely, there just might be a short delay if you try to throw several crossovers in quick succession (more trains operating, longer delay to recharge the DS64).

[Spaceman Spiff]

I'm thinking that for now maybe I'll just use the Kato switches for now. Is it safe to assume that if I can use the Kato power pack 22 014 ust to run the switches and accessories. That power pack should be sufficient?

 

 

Spiff

[KenS]

That depends on the number and type of accessories.  The switches only draw power when throwing them, the rest of the time no current is flowing, so there's no limit on the number you can wire up.  Accessories may draw power (likely do) and there's nothing that rates how much accessory power (watts) or current (amps) the pack can put out in the +12V terminals, so that's going to have to be trial-and-error, unless someone else has experience there.  I haven't used any accessories on my Kato packs.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Thanks for the info.

 

Spiff

[brill27mcb]

Ken is right -- you will throw one turnout control switch at a time. The double crossover has the most solenoids of any individual turnout track, and being that it is Kato and the power pack is Kato, I would say they probably designed things to work sufficiently well together. Otherwise they would have to spend a lot of time bowing and apologizing...

 

Rich K.

[keitaro]

stupid question but i do find this thread interesting as i am looking at dcc stuff myself atm for future planning in next layout.

 

Do tomix switches work with dcc? i'd assume that the power consumption would be the same as a kato one. I'd like to stick to all tomix track if possible but if need be i will change the dcc line to Kato.

 

Also my input on the controller for the points. I have always had a rule of thumb to make sure i have ample power to avoid any issues with anything electronic wether it be a train set, pc or anything else i wire up.

 

I preffer not to under buy and be disapointed if i find my self limited by it's use afterwards.

 

Just my two cents.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I preffer not to under buy and be disapointed if i find my self limited by it's use afterwards.

 

 

Just like me  :)

 

Spiff

[brill27mcb]

My understanding from the posts of others is that the Kato and Tomix turnout solenoids have slightly different coil resistance, and therefore slightly different current requirements. It should not make a difference in decoder selection. I believe the discussion arose in reference to Ray Stillwell's "BCD" control circuit, in order to fine tune the value of a resistor or capacitor in his circuit.

 

Rich K.