inobu Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 It drives me crazy when people tell others that you can run both DC and DCC. The truth is you really need to know what you have in order to do it. Not all decoders and command /boosters operate the same. Although there are standards not all systems are alike. Also running DCC/DC so called zero stretching is stressful on the motor and I would not do it............... with that said. Baro, I'm seeing a few things like the others you need to be careful of running your unit until you find out what you have. The top of the cab seems to be melting. The plastic is discolored. Also the wiring does not make sense all the tapping of wires is making a rats nest of problems (you already know). I think that he has your LED wire tapped to the motor block and that is why you are getting the full throttle when the power is applied. The decoder output for a LED maybe tapped and feeding the motor. If this was a true DCC / DC decoder the chassis would have to be isolated from the pickups. The decoder would feed the motor leads just the same. If you values that unit, I would remove all the DCC stuff or have someone with skill to redo it for you. Who ever had it last did not clean it up that for sure. The neater the install the better off you will be. Inobu Link to comment
inobu Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Haha this is such a crazy mystery, I'm almost more interested in this as a "who done it" than actually fixing my train. Very curious! You guys are good detectives! I wish I had even one of you guys here to actually examine my train. I'd picture you all with Sherlock Holmes caps and magnifying glasses getting to the bottom of this. This is fun! LOL ...to you. Always fun to operate on someone else. LOL Baro, Don't worry we will help you get to the bottom of this. Link to comment
CaptOblivious Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 you need to be careful of running your unit until you find out what you have. The top of the cab seems to be melting. The plastic is discolored. You know, I thought the horns looked like they might be drooping in the second photo compared to the first. Is that so? Is there something melting? That would be very bad, and would I second Inobu's advice. Link to comment
Barobutt Posted March 30, 2011 Author Share Posted March 30, 2011 Ah no the discoloration on the top is some damage from solvent glue. Out of all the fleet of engines and rolling stock by this guy they were all in the 150-200 range except for this loco which was "only" about 68 due to the glue damage on the roof. I'm just going to sand it down and re-paint the roof, easy. it's the one issue with this loco I CAN fix. Link to comment
Barobutt Posted March 30, 2011 Author Share Posted March 30, 2011 So I just opened up the engine again now that I know what I'm looking for.... I'm mad!! Mystery wire? Doesn't go anywhere. There's in fact 4 wires in the cab, only 2 conect to anything. There's no DCC decoder anywhere, most of those bits of tape are hiding useless wires. I took a bunch of pictures as evidence, I'll post them soon but I want to go down to the store RIGHT NOW. I took a video too showing it's ~100mph minimum scale speed and the lack of light when moving backwards. Link to comment
CaptOblivious Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Woah there, Tex. You've probably got excellent reason to be angry, but let's have a look at your photos first just to make sure you don't do something you'll feel silly about later. Better to dobule check first, then start shooting ;) Link to comment
Barobutt Posted March 30, 2011 Author Share Posted March 30, 2011 https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_cW2l8ppIEZA/TZOtQ-B4VXI/AAAAAAAACs8/eks-qgZ8_Gg/s576/100_1195.JPG Not the best shot but look inside, you can see the blue wire splits into two. This isn't in fact a split, but a dead-end wire taped up to it. Slightly better focus of the two blue wires. Nothing hiding on top of the motor, it's hard to tell but to the human eye it's clear that's all motor. Another attempt at getting a good shot inside the cap. There's only the 2 lights in there, cab light and strobe. The brownish wire doesn't go anywhere, in person you can see the metal tip of the wire. I believe the blue wire and brown wire were connected to the strobe at one point. I'm uploading the video now but it's taking FOREVER despite being only 28 megs. It shows the train going super fast at minimum speed and the front lights not coming on when reversing. Here's a link to my album so you can view larger resolution images https://picasaweb.google.com/107575807634177808838/Trains# https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/S0aTT7GmRU6SA1eKOuCcRg?feat=directlink VIDEO Ok, I'm heading to the shop in about 15 min unless anyone replies with some revolutionary suggestions or evidence. *15 min later* Ok guys I'm off, wish me luck. I have no idea how this is going to go down, I'd prefer to keep a good relationship with this guy as I actually like him and his store so I'm willing to buy the lamest excuse so long as I get a refund or a true fix. Link to comment
CaptOblivious Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Yeah, there doesn't seem to be anything in there. Give 'em hell. Link to comment
Barobutt Posted March 31, 2011 Author Share Posted March 31, 2011 TRIP REPORT I arrive and I explain the problem with its shitty performance. he says that this is sold as a switching loco so there's no excuse for it running how it is. He just asks me to hand it over and he'll take care of it by investigating the speed profile. I said that might be hard as I'm not sure there's a DCC decoder in there. He just laughs as says yes there is, in fact it's a really nice 4 function decoder that's a bit smaller than a normal one so maybe I missed it. I open it up and show him. He's pretty confused as to where the heck it is. He examines the cut and taped wires and seems a bit upset. He apologizes and says he told his friend that I wanted this to run on DC track, so to switch the decoder's DC function ON, nothing about taking the decoder out. He seems a bit mad too that even if the guy did take it out, he should have given it back as it's about a $45 decoder. He searches online for a while for replacements and we're still shocked at why it runs so poorly in DC mode. He says bottom line, he'll make things right, but in the mean time let's try to figure out why it's running poorly. Motor is stock, gearing is stock. He sets up a test track and runs it, it runs just like on mine, maybe a tiny bit slower. He switches to pulse and it runs almost ok, but still way worse than my bachman and he agrees that's no way for a switching loco to run. We realize he actually has a brand new unopened mp15dc DC version so we open it up to check if there's some board or something inside that might effect it's speed.. nope. We test it out on the track. IT RUNS JUST LIKE MINE!! What the hell atlas?? This confuses him even more, "Why would they sell a switching engine that runs like this, atlas is top of the line, I've sold many of these as DC switchers and never heard a complaint..". We switch to pulse mode and it runs a lot slower, but still very jerky. But either way, the two loco's run identically horrible. I subtly float the idea of taking it back for store-credit or a trade for another loco but he says it's "too late" for that. He says "if you had come to me within the first couple weeks I could have given your money back but it's way too late for that now". That rubs me the wrong way because the only reason it's been so long is that he's been either promising to fix the engine or waiting for a friend to fix it for all those months. I only had the damn thing in my possession for about a week and only had it on track out of it's box for about 10 min. But I can understand his position because he's just the middle man. The owner has already been paid long ago. He's also just the middle-man for his friend who's basically stolen my $45 decoder. I make it very clear I don't just want this engine to run on DC. I plan on upgrading to DCC soon and he sold this engine to me as a great deal at $70 because it has a 4 function decoder and will run fine on DC track. At the moment it does neither. He currently has the engine and is contacting his friend to try to get the chip back, otherwise we'll get a new 4 function chip. I'm sure as hell not paying $45 for it though if it comes to that, and they better solder up all the wires again too. I understand it's not his fault his friend took the chip, but it was in his possession to be serviced and it's not my problem, that's part of the cost of running a business. Overall I'm not mad at him. I'd have liked him to offer a refund or store credit, or make it more clear from the start that no matter what he'll do what it takes to make this the engine I paid for but I understand he's trying to run a business. My plan once I get the engine back with a working 4 function decoder? Ebay the damn thing or trade it with a friend. Even if I lose a little money on it I want rid of the thing, it's been nothing but problems. Link to comment
Guest ___ Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 That would get me pretty cheesed as well. But at least we now know there is clearly a problem with the engine and that the shop has been jerking ya around. Link to comment
Barobutt Posted March 31, 2011 Author Share Posted March 31, 2011 If any of you have a MP15, does it run how mine does in the video? Take into account that's on FULL not PULSE. Did atlas release a bad batch of these or are they all so jerky and fast? I don't understand why both mine and the brand new out of the box one ran exactly the same, ie garbage. Link to comment
inobu Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 There are too many changes made from the original install to come to a sound conclusion. Looking at the third group of pictures it looks like it is the results of the decoder removal, hence the extra wires. I find it hard to believe that the decoder is in the heat shrink based on the gauge of the wires coming out. So we can forget about the decoder Entry 21 makes it hard to determine if the decoder is still installed or wired in the motor casing. So I going to the speed problem. I'm a little perplexed about the speed problem but logic states if this is a plain DC configuration with no decoder then the excessive speed is from the controller. If he still has the controller set to pulse at the voltage setting is high along with the duty cycle then that is the culprit. DC speed is based on voltage and there is nothing in the cab that will step up the voltage so the only other possibility is the DC controller. Boy I had to strike everything out. LOL I am going to find the problem...!!!!! This is fun ... Inobu Inobu Link to comment
keitaro Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 you're pretty forgiving i would have grinded the guy. anyway thats some awfully messy wiring for a now stock loco. Link to comment
inobu Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 You problem is in the motor. Atlas has a Fast Speed motor, Slow speed and Scale speed motor. There has to be an issue with the motor if the New unit (NIB) did the same thing. You might need the DCC decoders to manage the speed and that may be why the original installed the decoder. Inobu Link to comment
CaptOblivious Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 Don't let that third party touch your loco again. Get your money back. I wouldn't trust him at all. Get yourself one of these: http://www.digitrax.com/prd_mobdec_dn163a3.php or one of these: http://www.tcsdcc.com/public_html/Customer_Content/Installation_Pictures/N_Scale/Atlas/MP-15N/MP-15N.htm And do it yourself. You've been through hell with this, no sense in making it worse by relying on known unreliable elements. Or, hell, send it to me, and I'll do it for the cost of return shipping. Stories like yours just make me livid. Link to comment
CaptOblivious Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 You problem is in the motor. Atlas has a Fast Speed motor, Slow speed and Scale speed motor. There has to be an issue with the motor if the New unit (NIB) did the same thing. You might need the DCC decoders to manage the speed and that may be why the original installed the decoder. Inobu Are the motors interchangeable? No amount of DCC magic is going to make this loco run slow and smooth, if it can't be achieved with a quality pulse-power DC throttle. 'Cause they both work in just the same way… Update: The Atlas product page says it comes fitted with the "Scale Speed" motor. Funny definition of "scale speed" they're using? http://www.atlasrr.com/nloco/nmp15.htm More: Spookshow reviews the motor's performance as quite good, and he's known for not accepting lousy quality product: http://www.visi.com/~spookshow/atlasmp15dc.html Finally, might consider replacing the motor, and seeing if that helps: Atlas part no. 522100 https://secure.atlasrr.com/mod1/itemdesc.asp?ic=522100&eq=&Tp= Link to comment
inobu Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 The decoder makes it tunable. You can fine tune the speed tables which gives you more control. Based on the results from the NIB unit one can conclude that these unit require some kind of speed management. The problem is we don't know if the original motor has been changed out and the decoder was installed to compensate/manage the speed for it. Inobu Link to comment
Barobutt Posted March 31, 2011 Author Share Posted March 31, 2011 I'm not good at being confrontational, but I did make my case clear I think. If this isn't fixed and running how I'd like I'm going to do my best to be more aggressive... or just bring my wife who doesn't take shit from ANYONE to back me up. I'm grew up in a very calm polite Canadian city known for its retirement communities, she's from Moscow.... 1 Link to comment
CaptOblivious Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 The decoder makes it tunable. You can fine tune the speed tables which gives you more control. Based on the results from the NIB unit one can conclude that these unit require some kind of speed management. The problem is we don't know if the original motor has been changed out and the decoder was installed to compensate/manage the speed for it. Inobu A decoder's output on the motor leads is just a 12V (give or take) PWM signal, which is going to be awfully similar to many good throttles. If he's got a good pulse power throttle, and can't make it run slow, then no tweaking of decoder settings will get it to run slow either. Link to comment
Barobutt Posted March 31, 2011 Author Share Posted March 31, 2011 yeah that was my theory as well. My throttle is an oldie but it's huge and feels quite quality. All my other locos I can control from a crawl. Nothing makes sense!! Link to comment
inobu Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 A decoder's output on the motor leads is just a 12V (give or take) PWM signal, which is going to be awfully similar to many good throttles. If he's got a good pulse power throttle, and can't make it run slow, then no tweaking of decoder settings will get it to run slow either. I'm able to get my unit to run at 1mph no stalling. The only way to get that is to change your speed steps and correlate your throttle position. The decoders have PID control and uses Back-EMF to control motor speed. Hard to do that with a DC controller it is just pulse duration and whatever the scale on the pod. Inobu Link to comment
CaptOblivious Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 A decoder's output on the motor leads is just a 12V (give or take) PWM signal, which is going to be awfully similar to many good throttles. If he's got a good pulse power throttle, and can't make it run slow, then no tweaking of decoder settings will get it to run slow either. I'm able to get my unit to run at 1mph no stalling. The only way to get that is to change your speed steps and correlate your throttle position. The decoders have PID control and uses Back-EMF to control motor speed. Hard to do that with a DC controller it is just pulse duration and whatever the scale on the pod. Inobu Fair enough. You speak the truth. Still, I would think that, having just watched the video, something is badly up with this motor that is not going to be easily remedied with just a decoder. I think a full remedy is going to involve replacing at least some if not all of the drive train with new, known-good parts. Which thankfully doesn't look too expensive. The mystery remains, however, of how it came to be this way, and why the stock unit on the shelf behaved in the same way… Link to comment
inobu Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 Yeah, I think that the NIB unit speaks a lot in that the unit need something done to it. If it is gearing or speed control. We will see. I almost want to get one just to see what in the heck is going on. Inobu Link to comment
CaptOblivious Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 That's just it, though. EVERY review of this loco praises its butterysmooth low speed action. There is no reason for a NIB one to drive badly. But it did. Paranoid conspiracy theory that is false: unless the proprietor was remotoring his stock with cheap motors, and selling the nice motors harvested for a profit in ebay! Link to comment
keitaro Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 maybe it was his "mate" who changed the motor hahaha hence the dodgy wiring Link to comment
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