Samurai_Chris Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 Ok, so I have set up a test track of Shinkansen slab rail roughly 2240cm long, with a radius of 391-354/45 at each end.. Now here is my question. I am running both my Kato 6 piece 800 series Tsubame, and my Tomix 8 piece Sakura on the track at the moment, and although they run fine. I just feel that the controller is letting me down. The controller is the red Tomix special edition Tsubame N1 controller, and I find that the trains don't seem to run all that fast? So I have to ask. is the speed of the motor limited to the controller, or the power that the said controller puts into the track. Or is it the size of the motor that dictates the end speed of the train? The point I am trying to make is. That I have seen plenty of Shinkansens live, and those suckers hoot at great knotts up close. But I just don't seem to be able to experience a realistic speed at the moment with mine.. I feel they should be a little faster on the straits than they are? Chris Link to comment
Sir Madog Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 IIRC, Japanese model trains run on a max of 12 V DC. I´d suggest you to get a voltmeter and check the voltage supplied to your track. If not, there is something wrong with your power pack. If yes, well, then it´ll be the gearing, which does not allow you to get the speed you are expecting. Link to comment
KenS Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 The speed of a DC motor depends on the voltage, and as Sir Madog said that's normally 12 volts for N-scale, including Japanese systems (some tram controls put out less). I've seen one reference to the Tomix N1 being a "12 volt" controller, but I don't know how accurate that is. Kato's controller is a 12V unit (I have several), and a Kato train should run quite sprightly on that. The actual speed of the train depends on both the motor speed and the gearing (ratio of motor speed to wheel speed), but Kato at least tends to gear their trains to run quite fast. Dirty or worn track joiners can cause voltage drop in the track, as can poor wiring connections (or very long lengths of wire). One way to check this if you have a multimeter is to take off the trains and disconnect the power pack, and measure resistance (ohms) across each joint in the track. A resistance higher than a couple of ohms is indication of a bad joint (my experience is that with Kato Unijoiners the number is either in the 0-8 ohm range, or above 20 ohms; I replace the latter). Dirty track or wheels can effectively do the same thing. Also check for loose or damaged wires or wire connectors at both the power-pack and track ends of the wire. Or for damage to the wire itself (a crushed wire may have most of the strands broken internally, which creates resistance). The power (wattage) of the power pack matters, but unless you're trying to run a couple of trains with bulb-based car lighting, even two modern trains isn't likely to exceed the power available in a typical power pack (I haven't tried that though). If you do exceed the power available, then that would affect the speed of the trains (effectively, I think the output voltage would drop once the maximum power was reached). Link to comment
Samurai_Chris Posted March 20, 2011 Author Share Posted March 20, 2011 Thanks guys.. Once I return to Australia, my brother is an electrical wizard, so hopefully, he can help me out.. Chris Link to comment
ShinCanadaSen Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 Hi Chris, I have the kato 0, 500, 251 SVO & a EH500, some are dc and some are dcc, with both the Kato M1 controller and my bachmann ezdcc, all my trains go warp speed at the top end. I think most trains will go pretty fast. Maybe you could time how long it takes for your trains to go around your test circuit and we could compare how fast they are going. Kai Link to comment
CaptOblivious Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 My N1 controller puts out only 11V, fwiw. The speed is also a function of the gearing, and most shinkansen models I have played with are geared rather conservatevly. That said, at top speed, even if only at 11V, I bet your models are traveling a good bit faster than the prototype! Pull out a stopwatch and time, say, 5 runs around the circuit. Yoiu know how long the track is, so you can figure the speed. Then multiply by 160 to get the speed in prototypical units. You would be amazed how much difference having a helicopter's eye view on a train makes it appear to slow down! Try putting the track at the edge of the table, and your eye right at table level and see how it feels then... Link to comment
keitaro Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 doesn't it also depend on amp going through the track ? e.g. My bachman does 1.2 amps where my new one does 1amp flat for both tracks so on my bachman at 50 speed i do notice it's faster than my new controller at 50 speed. the N1 is .05 amps so that would be reducing the speed some what. correct me if i'm wrong Link to comment
Samurai_Chris Posted March 20, 2011 Author Share Posted March 20, 2011 Thanks Gents.. I will time both Trains and see where we are at.. Maybe you guys can do the math, as that isn't my strong point.. I will get the sets up to top speed, and then time 5 laps each as Capt suggests.. Will get back to you when done... Chris Link to comment
Samurai_Chris Posted March 21, 2011 Author Share Posted March 21, 2011 Ok, I have only timed the Tomix 8 piece N700-8000 Sakura set, and here is where I am at! In order to keep this as scientific as possible I have built a test track that is exactly 2321mm long (2.32m) It is sitting on 2.5cm polystyrene sheets. I am using Tomix Shinkansen slab rail. With each strait comprised of 8 x DS280 pieces, with 4 x DC391. 354-45 (F) to make up the turns at each end.... I am using the "Special Edition" Red Tomix N-1 Tsubame controller from the starter pack. Now I gave the train a few laps to warm up (although I don't think it is necessary) and time five (5) runs in the forward direction. And then again five (5) runs in the reverse direction. In the forward direction my 5 times were: 1) 11.75s 2) 11.63s 3) 11.63s 4) 11.42s 5) 11.48s With an average time of 11.582sec per lap. On the reverse times, my times were: 1) 12.22s 2) 12.29s 3) 12.15s 4) 12.09s 5) 12.05s With an average time of 12.16sec per lap. The reverse times were not surprising to be slower, as the motor car in the second carraige is pushing, rather than pulling.. So I will leave you guys to work out the power and see if I my controller is under powered. Or I am expecting to much with my speeds? Cheers, Chris Link to comment
Sir Madog Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Let´s see: 2232 mm in 11.582 seconds equals 192.713 mm in a second or 693,766.189 mm in 3600 seconds, i.e. 1 hr. 693,766.189 mm per hr. are 0.694 km per hour for the scaled down model, so multiplied by 150 gives you the real speed, which is just a little over 104 km per hr. If my math is correct, that´s slow! 1 Link to comment
Samurai_Chris Posted March 21, 2011 Author Share Posted March 21, 2011 Sir Maddog, you also have to calculate that the Shinkansen sets are actually 1/160 scale. Not 1/150.... Link to comment
keitaro Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 so that was at 100% ? I have a track 3.5m long and at 50% my kiha takes about 14 secs untimed but it'd be roughly that. but like i said and i think it does make a difference your controller is .5 amps where mine is 1 amp. if you go to my thread latest post and watch the vid the trains are running at 35%. http://www.jnsforum.com/index.php/topic,4039.50.html the midddle track is the 3m + one Link to comment
Samurai_Chris Posted March 21, 2011 Author Share Posted March 21, 2011 Mate, thanks for the vid.. It's a little hard to tell. But I know that the speed is way down on what it should be... Considering I have the throttle to the floor... Link to comment
CaptOblivious Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 I get 115.428769 km/h going forward. Which is slow. Very slow. Hrm. You sure that distance measurement is right? That seems too slow. Way too slow. Like, I worry about that there might be a problem with your throttle kind of slow. Keitaro: The current doesn't matter. DC motors are voltage-controlled: The speed is proportional to the voltage applied, and not the current drawn. No single train will draw anywhere near 500mA while running, thank goodness. the 500mA rating for the N1 is just a maximum rating: It tells you basically how many trains you can run at the same time with it (and it works out to 3-6 trains, depending), and not what it pumps out at any given time. Link to comment
Samurai_Chris Posted March 21, 2011 Author Share Posted March 21, 2011 Yeah, and I don't have my other controller same N-1 but green, as I left it in Australia to put it up against this one.. 115km/h is slow, considering the operational speed of the N700-8000 is supposed to be around 250km/h, and they built to go 300+... I am thinking about going to the store and picking up another controller. But I like simpleness of the N-1, and the price.. Anything else around the 5000jpy area that anyone can recommend? Oh, and the track distance is spot on.... Link to comment
keitaro Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 do you have other locos to try ? i mean possibly it's the trains "possibly". or try the train on some one elses layout before forking out more $$$ Link to comment
Samurai_Chris Posted March 21, 2011 Author Share Posted March 21, 2011 Any thoughts on the Tomix ES controller? Or the N-400? Link to comment
Samurai_Chris Posted March 21, 2011 Author Share Posted March 21, 2011 Yeah I will do, I will try my Kato 800, and my Micro Ace 317 Link to comment
brill27mcb Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Any thoughts on the Tomix ES controller? Or the N-400? You don't want the ES -- it has 5 speed positions, not a smoothly varying speed dial. It's made for Tomix "Thomas" sets. The N-400, while a nice controller, is inferior to the N-1 that you have. All info I have is here: http://www.trainweb.org/tomix/control/TomixControlSystems.htm If you are not getting the full 12 volts from the N-1, that would be an issue. I gather that your timings were with only one train running from it. I don't remember where you are, but you might be able to find a reasonably-priced second-hand Tomix N-500 (now retired), which like the N-1 is rated 12V and 0.5A. I have read a comment that it is sometimes hard to get full speed from the lever handle of the N-1. The N-500 has a traditional dial control. Rich K. Link to comment
Samurai_Chris Posted March 21, 2011 Author Share Posted March 21, 2011 Thanks brill.. Actually, I have just timed my other two trains.. And this is what I got.. The second train I did was my Kato 6 piece Tsubame 800. The motor is in the 3rd carriage. I noticed that it seemed to splutter a bit, and I couldn't put it down to the track because I didn't have that problem at full power with the Tomix N700-8000. And I am then putting that down to the fact that the Tomix is able to get power from all wheels and the Kato doesn't... But when I got my five runs in, I got an average speed of 11.582s in forward (exactly the same as the 8 piece Tomix N700-8000), and 12.16s in reverse. (exactly the same again) So just for a look, I put my commuter Micro Ace 3 piece 317 set on for a go.. I managed an average speed of 15.724s in the forward, and surprisingly 14.426s in reverse.. Remembering that is 1/150, and the Shinkansens are 1/160 scale... Chris Link to comment
Samurai_Chris Posted March 21, 2011 Author Share Posted March 21, 2011 Ok, I have fiddled with the position of the point on the track, and still no improvement.. So I am thinking that controller arm is faulty. But when I go to take it apart, there are some strange screws in this box? Link to comment
Samurai_Chris Posted March 21, 2011 Author Share Posted March 21, 2011 Ok, problem solved guys!.. The problem is that the lever was restricted by the design of the box.. So I went to the local hardware and found a screw driver for those strange screws they use, and opened the box up.. After removing the lever I found that the speed controller almost went 340 degrees around and so I decided to put it to the test.. I just used my fingers to control the speed controller and got that baby cranked up.. So I did another 5 lap test and my Tomix N700-8000 averaged out at 7 seconds per lap.. Almost twice as fast as when I used the lever... Tomix has designed this power box in order to limit the speed (I guess for kids). But now that I know I can get twice the speed out of it, I am happy for my Shinkansens.. I probably wont run them at 100%, but at say 75-80% as I am worried about the motors blowing. (Is that a concern I should be aware of?) So thanks to all of you for your help!!! Now I have to figure out what speed 7 seconds works out to on that track?? Chris Link to comment
Sir Madog Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Still too slow! Now it is 183 km/h. Link to comment
Samurai_Chris Posted March 21, 2011 Author Share Posted March 21, 2011 Hi again mate... Well I am happy with that speed, as I just felt that when I wound her right up, the train felt that it was really screaming.. Maybe that's just my lack of confidence and understanding of the make up, design and ability of these little buggers... Maybe they like being given a good caning, I simply don't know... I am only new to this hobby... Link to comment
westfalen Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Only modelers of Japanese railways would be complaining that their trains go too slow. 3 Link to comment
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