Lord give me patience!!

[alpineaustralia]

On 6 May this year I wrote a peice complaining about the installation of a DZ123 in a Tomix 300 series.

 

I have recently installed a DZ143 in a Tomix Dr Yellow and the same thing has occurred.

The train sometimes works and sometimes doesnt work.

When it works,  it sometimes works well and sometimes it work stutters.

The train sometimes stops by itself and sometimes works to plan.

The train sometimes works with its shell on and sometimes doesnt work with its shell on.

I have checked the install about a dozen times and I cannot for the life of me see what is causing the problem.

 

The only thing I can put it doen to is that is is a Tomix (as my Tomic 300 series reacts similarly).

Has anyone had a similar experience? It never seems to happen with my kato instals.

Without wanting to start the whole Tomix vs Kato debate, what is it with Tomix and DZ decoders???

[Bernard]

Alpine - I have experience the same thing between Kato and Tomix decoder installs. I don't know what it is but I just find the Katos a lot easier to do. I also find that where as Kato trains are pretty much the same inside the Tomix trains vary. I have tries countless times to install decoders in my Tomix Nagoya line with no success. (one of the problems is the the whole chassis on this model is a feed to one of the brushes and I still can't isolate it)

 

I do have the same problem with my E1 Max that you are having with your Dr Yellow. I did a re-install and used alligator clips when I sodered the connections it seemed to help but it still is  finicky at times.

[CaptOblivious]

Yowza, you're gonna kill me, but...I think it's a short. Do you have any lights connected to the function outputs? If you haven't trimmed the wires off, it would be helpful to put a light on there, because when the motor is shorted on a Digitrax install, they are designed to still light up (as an aid in diagnosing what's going wrong). So, no movement, but lights work = short somewhere.

 

Can you think about the circumstances in which it does run? Does pressing or squeezing on it in any way help? Does it run better with the shell off?

 

(Just to empathize: The Tomix DE10 install I detailed earlier ate TWO whole DZ125 decoders! I still have yet to rip out the current one and send it off for repair, because taking that thing apart is just tedious, and cutting up a new decoder to install is also just tedious, and stressful.)

[stevenh]

To tell the truth... my Twilight Express EF81 install sometimes has similar issues... It'll just sit there for long period until it actually receives the data signal or keep running after you've asked it to stop!

 

Currently my issue is the way I have connected the 'rail' wires from the chassis to the decoder... alpine, are you soldering with a firm joint onto the copper rails? Is there any chance that this connection to the bogies is causing the effect?

[alpineaustralia]

A couple of observations:

 

1. It tends to work better with the shell off.

 

2. I remove the brown capacitor.

 

3. I hard solder the red/black tothe copper rail underneath

 

4. I believe it is isolated but just in case you guys can see something I cannot, Ive posted some pictures below for a "group consensus" view.

 

5. I have tested the light functions and they continue to work despite periods of inactivity  - power is definitely getting to the decoder

 

6. My gut feel tells me it is something about the Tomix motors that either requires more initial power to start them than (say) a Kato motor (the requirement for a capacitor for Tomix motors hints to that conclusion) or otherwise there is more inherent resistance ot inertia required somewhere else. For example, when my 300 gets going it is a rocket. The issue is getting it going.

 

7. I hate to declare my colours but I have to say I prefer Kato over Tomix for detail, quality of the trucks, ease of decoder installs, reliability etc. So far as I am concerned, I would only buy Tomix if Kato do not make the model - hence I have Tomix 300 series and a Dr Yellow.

 

8. I am soooooo glad this forum exists. I really thought I was the only one having trouble with it and started to doubt my decoder installation skills!   

[alpineaustralia]

I should also add one more thing. The motor works fine with the decoder if I literally have it detached from the trucks/gears and the motor is allowed to "free spin".

[CaptOblivious]

First, and foremost: That is a very neat, tidy and impressive-looking install. You clearly did take your time to try and do it right, and that alone deserves applause :D Especially because, having seen that, I'm going to bet you're right, and it's not a short issue.

 

Also, your follow-up post might be telling. If you remove the drive shafts, and re-assemble, it works perfectly? Given what you said, I'd say that either 1) there's something in the drive train binding (something that can bind more with the shell on) or 2) there's something about your trucks (which might well qualify as "something binding", but I'm trying to be specific here). Is this the set you cleaned and re-lubed? The trucks, with the drive gears in, should roll pretty freely down the tracks, if you give them a bit of a push or send them down an incline. Do they? Or are they hard to push?

 

This is sounding an awful lot like a problem I had with my DE10, and it was definitely a case of something in the drive-train binding. The trucks were great, the entire thing would work perfectly* when the drive shafts disengaged (I can't remove them entirely on my model), but when I put it together, it stuck. I figured out that one of the bits and bobs hadn't gone back on perfectly aligned, and this had caused some binding in the flexible metal driveshaft, which was causing me all sorts of problems. But I presume you've got a hard plastic driveshaft? Still, I'd examine all the bits and bobs in the drivetrain and be certain its not something binding there.

 

One other thing to try: Setting CV65, the "Voltage Kick Start". The Digitrax manual suggests it only works in 28-speed step mode, but I happen to know that in at least one of their decoder models this isn't true. Anyway, there should already be a default speed table programmed in. Try slowly jacking this CV up and see what happens. It provides a small spike of voltage to "de-stick" a loco that take s bump to get it going. If the problem is a motor with lots of "stiction", this should do the trick. If it's a binding problem or a truck problem, it won't work nearly so well. Anyway, that's my guess.

 

stevenh? Martijn?

 

*Except of course that the headlight functions are totally borked, and this is why I have to send it in for repair :(

[Martijn Meerts]

Hmm.. Hard to say what could be wrong really. If the motor works fine when it's not installed in the loco, then there could be something with the driveshafts or the cogwheels in the bogies. I tiny little bit of ballast for example can cause a train to not run.

 

Have you tried spinning the motor by hand? Does it rotate smooth and even when you do so? I've had problems with a Tomix motor after a short circuit, where the motor brushes seem to have been "welded" to the collector, causing the motor to just short out constantly.

 

Does the loco make any sort of noise when it doesn't run, some sort of humming or faint squealing type noise? If it does it might mean the motor has problems going round.

 

Does your dcc command station have some sort of feature where it turns itself off if it detects a short on the tracks?

 

You can also try hooking the motor up to a regular analogue transformer (make sure to desolder it from the decoder), and see how much voltage it needs to start spinning, and check whether it wants to spin at lower voltages than it needs to actually start spinning.

 

 

Decoder installs are never easy, even dcc friendly loco's often have problems. This is especially true for N-scale.

[alpineaustralia]

Many thanks guys.

 

I know it is definitely not the decoder because afer it occurred the first time, I installed a fresh brand new DZ 143 decoder and the same thing happended again.

 

What I propose to do is to completely re-do the install (just to make sure there is no short).

I'll photograph it step by step and post it.  Perhaps you guys might be able to see that I am doing something wrong that I am not able to see.  In any event, it might help newer DCC converts.

 

I will also dismantle, lube and re-assemble the trucks. Again I'll photograph it step by step and post it.

 

If that doesn't work, I think I'll order a new motor or sub-assembly from HobbySearch.

 

If that doesnt work - I'll be posting a "For Sale" ad in rhe classifieds ! 

[alpineaustralia]

One other thing to try: Setting CV65, the "Voltage Kick Start". The Digitrax manual suggests it only works in 28-speed step mode, but I happen to know that in at least one of their decoder models this isn't true. Anyway, there should already be a default speed table programmed in. Try slowly jacking this CV up and see what happens. It provides a small spike of voltage to "de-stick" a loco that take s bump to get it going. If the problem is a motor with lots of "stiction", this should do the trick. If it's a binding problem or a truck problem, it won't work nearly so well. Anyway, that's my guess.

 

I have tried this and it worked. I changed CV65 to 255 and it seemed to work (for the moment). Now lets cross our fingers.

Thanks Cappy - another excellent suggestion! 

[alpineaustralia]

I spoke to soon!

[CaptOblivious]

255 on CV65 seems a bit high: That would give a quick spike of 12v! I imagine that train jumps when you apply the throttle now, quite the opposite of your original problem. Have you tried a lower value to see what happens?

 

I wonder if our collective Tomix-DCC problem is this: That, simply, Tomix motors don't respond well to pulse power. DCC decoders don't output a smooth, continuous 0v–12v on the motor leads, they send a very high-frequency AC waveform: basically just pulses of 12v. The higher the throttle setting, the higher the frequency. Since Tomix's CL (Constant Lighting) system almost certainly uses some sort of AC waveform super-imposed on the DC track voltage to light cars independently of throttle setting, I wonder if Tomix motors are in some way designed with a decreased response to pulse power to prevent the lighting signal from moving locos? This is just pure speculation, but the answer might lie in retro-fitting a (say) Kato motor to a Tomix motorized car. Sounds like a total PITA, though, if not outright impossible.

[CaptOblivious]

I wonder if our collective Tomix-DCC problem is this: That, simply, Tomix motors don't respond well to pulse power.

 

Duh, there's an obvious test awaiting. Anyone here (Masioka?) use a pulse power DC throttle? I think tonight I'm gonna run my (unconverted) Tomix EF81 off my DigiTrax Zephyr, which uses something like pulse power to run DC locos, and see what happens.

[Martijn Meerts]

My first conversion was a Tomix DD51, and that one runs just fine. It's clocked up quite a few hours on it's little oval way back when I still had some space ;)

 

The Tomix, Kato and MicroAce motors all look very similar, and I doubt there's anything built into the motor itself that makes Tomix motors any different. If anything at all, I think for the constant lighting thing there's just circuit built into the lighting units themselves (especially considering the older lighting units don't work with constant lighting)

[alpineaustralia]

My feeling is that the motors are different because of the capacitor that Tomix install that is not installed with Kato motors.

[Martijn Meerts]

Most European made N-scale models (minitrix, fleischmann, roco, etc) have capacitors as well, and they all run just fine on digital.

 

There are a few different motor types, but I haven't really come across any type of motor used in model trains of any scale that don't work in digital mode, except some of the newer Marklin motors that require special circuitry (C-sine motor for example)

[alpineaustralia]

Now both my Tomix do not respond.

Could it be the decoder? I use digitrax Dz 125 or Dz 143s.

Does anyone have any better ideas on this?

Martijn do you have a Tomix 300 series or a Dr Yellow? If so, what decoder did you install in them?

Do they have different spcifications? great output perhaps?

 

[move][glow=red,2,300]H E L P ![/glow][/move]

[CaptOblivious]

Does not respond at all, in any way? No lights, nothing?

The '43s are rated to 1.25A and the '25s to 1A. It seems unlikely that the shinkansen are drawing too much current, and overloading them (unless they both stalled? Got stuck on something for a long time?)

 

Could be a loose connection or (I know you don't want to hear this) a short. Perhaps something came loose after a lot of handling? A weak solder joint could do that. Do you have a decoder tester, like the Digitrax LT1? It's easy to make one if you don't have one.

 

You've just had such rotten luck with these models, it breaks my heart...

[Martijn Meerts]

I have a dr. Yellow, but no decoder in it yet. I usually install Lenz Gold Mini's though, and so far they haven't stopped working. I've installed them in a Kato 800 series, Kato Super Rail Cargo, Tomix KIHA01 railbus, Tomix DD51 and Kato C57.

 

I have noticed some trains stopped working suddenly on my fathers layout, but those aren't exclusively Japanese trains. Unfortunately, it's difficult to say what the problem could be :/