When is a bullet train NOT a bullet train?

[The_Ghan]

The answer is: After the 200 series !!!

 

Why?  Because my Encyclopedia Britanica, my dictionary, and Wikipedia all describe a bullet train as "... so nicknamed for their appearance and speed" ... now, I know this is going to kick up a stink, I'm sure, because if you use an electronic translater to translate Bullet Train you get 新幹線 Shinkansen ... and vice-versa.  However, 新 means new and 幹線 means trunk line or main line. 

 

So, from 300 series on these trains are still Shinkansen, but not bullet trains ... because they don't look like a bullet.  Some of them look more like a speeding duck, which I can't remember how to say - it's been twenty five years ... but I do remember having this conversation in English class at my Japanese highschool and there were plenty of laughs.

 

On the other hand, describing these trains as the New Trunk Line trains just doesn't have the same appeal as a sell-point, does it?

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[ToniBabelony]

For me it has always been the Shinkansen. Maybe it's because I grew up with it or that I've always thought 'Bullet Train' of a rather stupid name (as bullets travel most of the time close to the speed of sound).

 

If it's appearance and speed, then this beauty also should be called a 'Bullet Train', but already had the 'Pendolino' name (pendulum system) name given to it.

 

Anyway, I admit 'Bullet Train' does have a swing to it, but it doesn't do it for me.

[CaptOblivious]

Shinkansen, of course, officially refers to the rail lines and not the trains :) of course, even the Japanese use the term quite liberally, but wouldn't "super express" be the right term to describe the trains themselves? How do native Japanese use the term "bullet train"?

 

I just call them all "bullet trains", because that's the term my friends and family use ("what about that one? Is that a 'bullet train'?" "No.")

[bikkuri bahn]

The term "bullet train" is not used in Japan for the current line- the Captain is right in that the term "shinkansen", though technically referring to the high speed rail line itself, is used by the general population to refer to everything, including the trains and service levels .  The term "superexpress" is not commonly used by Japanese- I believe this term is derived from the original nickname/moniker of the 0 series as "yume no choutokkyu", or "superexpress of dreams", which is only used in a historical context.  However, in English announcements on the trains, the train is announced something like (in a vaguely English accent): "Welcome aboard the Shinkansen, this is a Kodama SUPERexpress bound for Shin-Osaka, we will stopping at Shinagawa..." I always get a kick out of the intonation given to the term superexpress, with almost a hint of haughtiness.

 

*it seems the term bullet train comes from the plans for the original steam locomotive shinkansen line planned pre-war- the "Dangan Ressha":

http://www.hood-online.co.uk/publications/JapanSociety.doc

[westfalen]

I always have a chuckle at first time travelers wondering how a 'Super Express' can stop at all stations. I've never traveled on a Nozomi, what do the announcements on it say?

 

I agree with The_Ghan, when I think of 'bullet trains' the pictures in my mind are of 0, 100 and 200 series. If I show a non-Japanese modeler/railfan a photo of anything later they don't initially think of it as a bullet train.

[bikkuri bahn]

Apparently the Nozomi is also called a superexpress:

http://www.pitapa.sakura.ne.jp/convention/ambitious/index.html

 

I suppose even a Kodama can be considered a superexpress when compared to a mere limited express running on zairaisen.

[Tenorikuma]

I thought "bullet train" was a purely English term used for modern high-speed trains like the Shinkansen, TGV, etc.

[The_Ghan]

Right on Westfalen ... now lets think of a catch expression for those speeding ducks !!!

 

Tenorikuma, the three references that I mentioned at the start of this thread all specifically refer to Japanese shinkansen when you look up bullet train ... try as they might, the French TGV, EuroStar, Thalis, etc., will never be known as bullet trains.

 

Cap'n, I agree (and commented in my opening message) that shinkansen refers to the line, not the train.

 

Tony, my .22 rimfire fires rounds at about 1,400kmh - faster than sound.  My .223 is about 2.5 times faster, so I reckon most bullets travel much faster than the speed of sound ...

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[gmat]

I think that Toni is referring to near the end of a bullet's trajectory when most of its momentum has been lost and so it might be traveling slower than the speed of sound. But you are right that bullets travel faster than the speed of sound.

 

Best wishes,

Grant

[disturbman]

Hum... Tell me, what's the point of this conversation? Just joking. 

 

Anyhow. This is simply a problem of applying a definition to the letter or not. Clearly, at least for me, HST were nicknamed "bullet train" because of the shape of the nose of the 0 Series. It was also a neat way to describe their high velocity. If you ask me, those train should be nicknamed "boeing train" or "DC3 train".

 

From Wikipedia on the name bullet train:

"The popular English name bullet train is a literal translation of the Japanese term dangan ressha (弾丸列車), a nickname given to the project while it was initially being discussed in the 1930s. The name stuck because of the original 0 Series Shinkansen's resemblance to a bullet and its high speed."

 

And on the matter of Superexpress:

"Shinkansen literally means new trunk line, referring to the tracks, but the name is widely used inside and outside Japan to refer to the trains as well as the system as a whole. The name Superexpress (超特急 chō-tokkyū?), initially used for Hikari trains, was retired in 1972 but is still used in English-language announcements and signage."

 

Obviously, the definition should be updated a bit. But I do wonder if the term "bullet train" is still only specificaly used to describe earlier Shinkansens or if it has evolve to a more a general meaning encomprising HST.

 

Discussion moved to Off Topic

[Martijn Meerts]

It's really only the 0 and 200 that look like bullets, the 100 has more of a shark nose.

 

I actually never call high speed trains "bullet trains", not sure why..

[Tenorikuma]

Thanks for the edumacation, Disturbman. I had no idea the English term came from Japanese. I've never encountered 弾丸列車.

[disturbman]

Tenorikuma, take a look at Bikkuri's post

 

*it seems the term bullet train comes from the plans for the original steam locomotive shinkansen line planned pre-war- the "Dangan Ressha":

http://www.hood-online.co.uk/publications/JapanSociety.doc

 

Martijn, I agree. Shark trains could also be a suitable nickname for bullet trains. 

 

By the way, Ghan, I remember that one of the AVE (the S-102) is nicknamed "Pato" ("duck") because of the shape of its nose.

[Martijn Meerts]

So we have:

 

- Bullet train

- Great White train

- Platypus train

[Tecchan]

Bullet train is fine... don't worry too much on the terms...

High Speed Train too.

 

There is loads of words that doesn't have much sense now but you still use "the old way", so don't worry too much on such details.

 

In french, you will easily say TGV for any HST, don't forget that TGV means... high speed train (train à grande vitesse).

 

A conversation will look like:

"We took the Shinkansen."

[awkward silence]

"...the Japanese TGV"

"Ahhhh cool!"

 

And you will also have the joy to say how much the SNCF is crappy compared to Shinkansen (and the whole Japanese railway system).

[Nick_Burman]

A friend of mine has a N scale "Relay Tsubame". He has a real hard time pointing out to people here that despite being a MU train and also having a pointed nose at each end it is not a "bullet train"!

 

Cheers NB

[Tecchan]

A friend of mine has a N scale "Relay Tsubame". He has a real hard time pointing out to people here that despite being a MU train and also having a pointed nose at each end it is not a "bullet train"!

 

Cheers NB

 

I used to call it BMW train because of the two holes in the front. 

 

 

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

Funny because now this is one of my favorite trains and I find that BMW make the most hideous cars. 

[disturbman]

I always have found that the nose of those Series 883 had some ressemblance to the one of the first TGV units. As much as the Series 885 looks like a Velaro... the difference being one can theoricaly go at 130km/h and the other one can do something like 300km/h. JR Kyushu as a nice sense of humour. 

 

@Kumo: I'm still pissed that the SNCF had trade-marked the "TGV" accronyme.

 

Yeah, usual french conversation. It's the same with the ICE, the "german TGV".  We all are limited to the standard we are used to.

[Nick_Burman]

Bullet train is fine... don't worry too much on the terms...

High Speed Train too.

 

There is loads of words that doesn't have much sense now but you still use "the old way", so don't worry too much on such details.

 

In french, you will easily say TGV for any HST, don't forget that TGV means... high speed train (train à grande vitesse).

 

A conversation will look like:

"We took the Shinkansen."

[awkward silence]

"...the Japanese TGV"

"Ahhhh cool!"

 

And you will also have the joy to say how much the SNCF is crappy compared to Shinkansen (and the whole Japanese railway system).

 

The problem with SNCF is one of focus. By and large the TGV services are very good and punctual (when they are not on strike! ), although they do not reach Shinkansen efficiency  levels. The real issue with SNCF is on the Inter-City and regional services...old and dowdy rolling stock, inconvenient timetables, etc... the few times I’ve been on the TGV (and by extension on the Eurostar) I have never been let down – bar one time on the Eurostar, but that was the work of the Belgians...

 

 

Cheers NB

[Nick_Burman]

I always have found that the nose of those Series 883 had some ressemblance to the one of the first TGV units. As much as the Series 885 looks like a Velaro... the difference being one can theoricaly go at 130km/h and the other one can do something like 300km/h. JR Kyushu as a nice sense of humour. 

 

@Kumo: I'm still pissed that the SNCF had trade-marked the "TGV" accronyme.

 

Yeah, usual french conversation. It's the same with the ICE, the "german TGV".  We all are limited to the standard we are used to.

 

Again, most people who see the Relay Tsubame associate it with the TGV. Again, another hard time explaining that TGV it ain't...

 

Well, aren't the Spanish "Euromed" trains "TGVs that trundle"? The Japanese just followed prototype practice...

 

 

Cheers NB

[disturbman]

Well, I think it would be hard for the French HS system to ever reached the level of efficiency of the Shinkansen since TGVs still run in mix traffic. This makes up for a world of difference between the two systems.

 

"TGVs that trundle"? Sorry, my english is not that good.

[Tecchan]

I always have found that the nose of those Series 883 had some ressemblance to the one of the first TGV units. As much as the Series 885 looks like a Velaro... the difference being one can theoricaly go at 130km/h and the other one can do something like 300km/h. JR Kyushu as a nice sense of humour. 

 

Yep, the color scheme and even the look of the windshield make it look like the firsts TGV (grey one). (it's 787 series although, 883 is the sonic ;-) )

Same for the 885, it really looks like a Velaro!

 

@Kumo: I'm still pissed that the SNCF had trade-marked the "TGV" accronyme.

Yep, bummer...

Like Microsoft once wanted to trademark the alphabet... ^^,,

 

The problem with SNCF is one of focus. By and large the TGV services are very good and punctual (when they are not on strike! ), although they do not reach Shinkansen efficiency  levels. The real issue with SNCF is on the Inter-City and regional services...old and dowdy rolling stock, inconvenient timetables, etc... the few times I’ve been on the TGV (and by extension on the Eurostar) I have never been let down – bar one time on the Eurostar, but that was the work of the Belgians...

I can't remember a time I took TGV and arrived on time... :-/

 

 

Somehow we stay kids all of our life:

"500 series must be the faster because it's the most pointy!!!" ;-)

[Nick_Burman]

"TGVs that trundle"? Sorry, my english is not that good.

 

Trundling means moving in a rather slow, heavy, noisy, cumbersome way. RENFE's Euromeds do that...a complete TGV in form but not in function which moves at ordinary express train speeds over normal (in Spain that means broad-gauge) tracks.

 

 

Cheers NB

[Mudkip Orange]

I thought "bullet train" was a purely English term used for modern high-speed trains like the Shinkansen, TGV, etc.

 

In my experience people use "bullet train" to specifically refer to the Shinkansen, whereas TGV/ICE/AVE/etc are either referred to by just their names or "high speed rail/train/etc"

[disturbman]

Yep, the color scheme and even the look of the windshield make it look like the firsts TGV (grey one). (it's 787 series although, 883 is the sonic ;-) )

 

Two things:

1/ Grey TGVs? I've never heard of those, I was born with the orange ones.

2/ yes of course, Series 787... those two looks two much alike.

 

Yep, bummer...

Like Microsoft once wanted to trademark the alphabet... ^^

 

^^ Maybe I should trademark my name, just in case...

 

I can't remember a time I took TGV and arrived on time... :-/

 

I'm pretty sure that the last one I took was on time. Also I remember one time, my TGV departed late (15 or 20 minutes) and we arrived in Paris 10 minutes earlier than planed on the regular schedule. All the train after us were delayed because of heavy fog icy fog around a portion of the line.

 

 

Somehow we stay kids all of our life:

"500 series must be the faster because it's the most pointy!!!" ;-)

 

So true! The E5 give me the impression this train can fly in space Densho no Ginga style...