World Kougei EF53

[Guest JRF-1935]

I tried the mini-torch once to repair one of my brass steeplecabs and there was so much heat - so fast - the whole front end fell off! 

Rich C

 

Ouch :)

 

Maybe a micro torch then 

It was quite comical - couldn't stop laughing for about a 1/2 hr. (-:  Maybe a "Super Mini Micro" torch or even a match    Seriously tho if your going to do a lot of brass kits the resistence solderer is the way to go.  Initial expense is high but it will last a lifetime and can be used for other soldering jobs.  Very quick and painless   It's basically a modeler's instant tack welder!

Never used epoxy on brass before - let me know if it works out.

Rich C

[Martijn Meerts]

I tried the mini-torch once to repair one of my brass steeplecabs and there was so much heat - so fast - the whole front end fell off! 

Rich C

 

Ouch :)

 

Maybe a micro torch then 

It was quite comical - couldn't stop laughing for about a 1/2 hr. (-:  Maybe a "Super Mini Micro" torch or even a match    Seriously tho if your going to do a lot of brass kits the resistence solderer is the way to go.  Initial expense is high but it will last a lifetime and can be used for other soldering jobs.  Very quick and painless   It's basically a modeler's instant tack welder!

Never used epoxy on brass before - let me know if it works out.

Rich C

 

 

I'll try the epoxy on the car I'm building now at some point. I've had a quick look at resistance soldering gear, but I can't find any for sale in the Netherlands. Would be possible to import of course, but I'd prefer to find a shop in the Netherlands, makes it much easier to get support and spares etc.

 

Also noticed a lot of people building their own, but I'd rather stick to buying one :)

[Sir Madog]

Martijn,

 

here is a link showing how to build a simple, but efficient resistance soldering unit - maybe this is of help to you. Sorry - the page is in German.

 

http://www.mec-kirchheim.de/tip1.htm

[cteno4]

Martijn,

 

i think you will need to make a mosquito net you can work in to catch parts when they go ping off the tweezers! could all funnel down into a little cup to collect the flying parts!

 

seriously, you can also dip the tips of fine pliers in that rubber/plastic dip stuff that you can use to coat tool handles. makes nice fine, but grippy tweezers. i have seen a few for sale like this for jewelry and watch repair.

 

i hate that ping noise!

 

jeff

[Martijn Meerts]

Well.. Having done up some experience with a couple of other kits (not all entirely successful, the Mitsui Wharf loco for example tends to lock up and is quite noisy), I figured I'd get started on the chassis and mechanism of my biggest kit (so far ;)) As can be seen earlier in the thread, this specific loco has 1 motor per bogie, and a LOT of detail all around.

 

 

Image 035:

A good pair of nippers is essential. I bought this rather expensive one, but it's very strong and versatile. It's anti-static, so great for cutting components after soldering them onto a board. It's strong enough to cut piano wire (which means cutting the spring steel that come with servo's are easy to cut), and it's small and accurate enough to cut parts from the brass sheets.

 

 

Image 036:

1 part of the bogie just cut out. Shows how cleanly the nipper cut the brass. There's just a tiny little bit left in the bottom left corner for example. Only take a few seconds to file it off.

 

 

Image 037:

The part from the previous image, but folded. There are partial holes. Holes in 1 side of the folded part, but none in the other side of the folder part. These are what World Kougei calls 'solder holes'. Basically you fill them with solder to keep the 2 sides together after the fold.

 

 

Image 038:

The 2 main structural parts of 1 of the bogies of the loco.

 

 

Image 039:

Some more tools.. A vise (a really cheap and rusty one, needs replacement.. One on a ball like many camera tripods would be optimal.) The Dremel is a mini torch, runs on butane gas. The open flame heats up the metal real fast, and it gets real hot. Especially small parts turn glowing red hot in seconds. The problem if the metal gets too hot, is that solder won't stick for some reason. Even letting it cool down and heating it up to a decent temperature again won't work. Small parts I glue on with either CA or preferably epoxy.

 

 

Image 040:

The 'solder holes' filled with solder. These don't have to be perfect, because they won't be visible anymore. In case of the top left one, I heated the metal with the torch for a few seconds, removed the torch, then pushed some solder into the hole. Because the metal is still hot, the solder will melt and flow into the hole nicely. The bottom right one, I heated the metal from the back, and held the solder in the hole while I had the flame still on the metal. This method works better, but again, you'll won't see these soldered bits once the kit is done.

[keitaro]

Well.. Having done up some experience with a couple of other kits (not all entirely successful, the Mitsui Wharf loco for example tends to lock up and is quite noisy), I figured I'd get started on the chassis and mechanism of my biggest kit (so far ;)) As can be seen earlier in the thread, this specific loco has 1 motor per bogie, and a LOT of detail all around.

 

Same issue here my mitsui is hard to get running smoothly I find the gears need lubing right away and the folding sides need to be perfect and strong so the wheels cannot move about much, so the gears do not move out of position even the slightest movement may cause jamming. I.e. looks at a steamer model you may already have and try woble the wheels left to right? you can't really move much at all just a fraction this is how they need to be. I found on first install mine were too wobbly and the gears would jam due to this movement. 

 

Once you get past this you get a whole new level of trouble by adding on the pistons and rods  I have almost conquered this. just a matter of getting the rods in perfect position.

 

good luck on the EF53 

[Martijn Meerts]

Actually, I've already mounted the pistons and rods :) Seems it started running somewhat better after adding them. Ended up using only 2 pins for the rear wheels as well the pins in the center wheels. Front wheels have no pins (I only had 3 pins in the bag anyway :))

 

I did bend an axle when trying to get the wheels on, that's probably part of the lockups I was getting, plus I dented 2 of the wheels.. But at least I'm learning ;)

[keitaro]

Actually, I've already mounted the pistons and rods :) Seems it started running somewhat better after adding them. Ended up using only 2 pins for the rear wheels as well the pins in the center wheels. Front wheels have no pins (I only had 3 pins in the bag anyway :))

 

I did bend an axle when trying to get the wheels on, that's probably part of the lockups I was getting, plus I dented 2 of the wheels.. But at least I'm learning ;)

 

 

It's an expensive learning curb haha. I have jumped back to the hitachi for now. i am trying to finish the frame and will jump back to the mitsui after making the motor car for the deki.

[Martijn Meerts]

It's definitely an expensive learning curve yes, but as long as you're having fun doing it, it's okay. Besides, even if a model doesn't run well, you can always turn it into a static model somewhere on the layout (it'd be a very expensive static model, but at least it won't be completely wasted ;))

 

I do wonder how difficult it would be to build a large steamer though. The Mitsui is already quite a challenge with the pistons and rods, and that one only has 3 axles =)

[Mr Frosty]

That looks incredibly daunting. I am just starting on making brass kits myself, but have chosen something a lot simpler (and cheaper) to start with.

[keitaro]

Marti i think the c55 would be difficult but the motor unit looks "possibly" easier.

 

I'm interested in the c55 just up as a kit but at $300+ no thanks for now lol.

 

while more parts it does looki abit easier with out the whole metal frame on the side. easier to adjust as the wheels and gears go together then they slide up and a clip goes on the under neath to hold in place.

 

btw one of these babies completed costs in the $900 range so if you were good at doing it you could make a business of making them and selling for $500 lol

 

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/image/10170716z/70/1

[Martijn Meerts]

Frosty, as soon as you've got the hang of the soldering, it's not all that bad. Of course there's a lot of small parts, and with all the axles being plastic you need to be really careful putting the wheels on the axle (as I found out the hard way ;))

 

 

Keitaro, the chassis of the bigger steamers looks quite simple compared to some of the smaller stuff. More space as well, so it should be okay. The main problem is getting everything lined up correctly with regards to the rods and gears etc. Just a mm off, and it won't run well. I *WILL* get one at some point, but I want to finish the kits I have first, or at least, get them in a running condition and solder/glue all the parts and details.

 

If you build enough of them to make a business out of it, I'm fairly certain you'll get good at it real quick =)

[Martijn Meerts]

So, after a rather long break, I've started some work on this one again. I'm a bit more confident soldering brass now, and I've got some additional tools which help. I also tried using flux on a different kit, but I can't say it helped all that much. Solder would only flow slightly easier onto the parts to be soldered, but of course the major disadvantage is the corrosiveness of the flux, which means you need to clean the model well after soldering. (An ultrasonic cleaner actually works well). All the soldering I've done on the EF53 though is without using flux. I've also stopped using the mini-torch because, well.. It sucked ;)

 

I've worked on the main frame bit that holds the bogies in place, as well as 1 of the bogies. There's a ridiculous amount of detail (and parts) in those things, so progress is slow, but then again, don't really want to rush it either. I've forgotten to take pictures of the progress, but I have another bogie to build, so yeah :)

 

One thing has me stumped though, and hopefully someone here can help.. Attaching the bogies to the frame is a bit of a strange construction, or rather, it seems a bit strange because I can't read the instruction I guess. If you look at this image: http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/image/10134032z3/70/3 , in the box in the right bottom corner it shows how to attack a bogie to the frame. What I'm wondering is, what does it say next to the screw that's just below and to the left of the red oval? I know I need to use an M1.4 screw, but it doesn't mention what length. When I use the M1.4 2mm screw mentioned in the bottom of that image to keep things in place, there's actually no room left on top to insert another screw ...

 

I've seen the same mechanism on a different kit I have, but it made more sense there considering the screws would actually fit :)

 

Any help would be very much appreciated =)

 

 

Edit: I tried translating it myself by figuring out the stroke count of the kanji, looking them up, and pasting them into Google translate, but that made even less sense than the original writing, which is to say, less than no sense at all ;)

Edited July 2, 2013 by Martijn Meerts

[Martijn Meerts]

Well, it had to happen.. I was soldering a small brass strut into one of the bogie frames, and ended up melting and deforming (a small part of) the white metal detail on the outside of the bogie. It's hardly noticeable, and probably fixable with some putty, so I'm not all that worried about that issue in particular. I know there's low temp solder specifically for white metal, but the problem is that the white metal goes into some brass bits, which makes the whole process even worse. It's all doable with low temp solder and pre-tinning the brass etc. etc, but that won't help for the smaller white metal detail parts. They'd just melt pretty much instantly :)

 

So, I'm looking at gluing the white metal instead, and I actually think that's what World Kougei has designed the white metal bits for. They all have these pegs which act as guides when installing the parts, but usually those pegs are also the only bits where you can apply solder. Seems now that gluing them in place seems like a much better option.

 

Question now is.. Superglue or epoxy? :)

 

 

(Still no pictures, but I'll post a few soon-ish)

[cteno4]

martijn,

 

i would go with good epoxy, better chance of a strong joint, just not as easy to work with. acc on little metal bits w/ little stress usually it holds well but can at times be a cranky and not hold so well. but do test with one bit first and make sure what ever glue you use holds well. wash the white metal well, usually has a lot of release agent on it.

 

there is some great stuff thats basically an epoxy base (not catalyzed) with metal in it. wonderful for reconstructing broken bits. its sort of a thick goo that you can form up and let dry then the stuff works like metal. tough stuff and sticks to about anything. i used it like 10 years or more ago to fill in a chassis whack i did on a us loco.

 

good luck!

 

jeff

[Martijn Meerts]

Some pictures :)

 

 

Image 041:

Shows 2 spots where the white metal melted and deformed. Some constructive filing, grind and sculpting here should fix the problem considering most of the metal is still there, just the detail has sort of faded slightly.

 

 

Image 042:

Other side of the bogie, this one is a bit more problematic, since I had to remove a good chunk of white metal after it had melted and got squashed between a clip that was keeping things in place. A bit of putty (or stuff like the metal filler Jeff mentioned) should fix the problem though, as long as the putty sticks to the white metal.

 

 

Image 043:

The frame that the bogies connect to, and holds the shell in place as well as 4 compressed air tanks (I presume.) I used a newly obtained fiber glass brush to clean and roughen up the brass where the air tanks go, and used a small metal file to clean and roughen up the back of the air tanks. Mixed up a batch of general purpose epoxy (the slow curing kind rather than the quick 5 minute stuff), applied to the brass frame, and then put on the air tanks.

 

 

Image 044:

A bit of a monstrosity, but the clips are holding the tanks in place nicely :)

Also added a drop of epoxy on the pegs, just in case. It remains to be seen if/how well it holds. I almost glued my fingers together, so I guess the epoxy at least still works ;)

 

 

On a side note, I don't like working with epoxy all that much. I can never really tell when it's mixed well enough, and you always end up mixing up way more than you need. On the other, if it works, it's worth the effort I guess ;)

 

[Densha]

Holy crap, do you even need to assemble the whole mechanisms yourself?

[Martijn Meerts]

Yep.. Pretty much everything just comes as laser cut brass sheets. The only exceptions really are some of the axles and the motors. The shells also usually come pre-formed, but without any detailing added to them.

 

All the axels with drive gears in them also come in separate parts. The axle, the wheel, and the wheel spokes/detail :)

[keitaro]

marti i melted the top front and rear parts of my deha i bought. or some other model can`T remember. I also ruined the motor unit.

 

I don`T know what it was. but now i know for next time :)

 

I will get around to finishing it one day i have already made most of it just some detail bits fix the meted roof joints and put in some LED`S and paint.

 

Of course it`s still in australia which is problem #1 haha

[Martijn Meerts]

Many of the detail bits and pieces like headlights and antenna's and such are white metal, which melts rather fast :)

 

Apart from the wheels of my mitsui wharf loco, I haven't messed anything up to a point where it's not fixable, but the learning curve is definitely expansive with these kits.

 

There are times when things work out well, and then there are times when you try to solder something and it just won't stick. I've figured out that when that happens it's best to put it aside and go do something else for a while.

[Martijn Meerts]

Worked a bit more on the EF53 the past days. It's (slowly) starting to take shape. 1 of the bogies is pretty much finished, including all the railings and detail bits. Motor is also installed, but haven't tested it yet. The motor and gears come as separate parts as well, so I had to glue the gears onto the motor shaft, just waiting for it to cure completely before giving it a test run.

 

I've also been trying to figure out how to best install lights. It doesn't come with any lights at all, and the headlights are actually just white metal castings without the option to install and LED or anything. Not sure there's optional parts/kits for that, or if you have to basically do it yourself. The headlights are big enough to fit an SMD LED, but not sure how to go about filling it up so it looks like there's glass there, and not just an LED. Taillights seem a lot easier considering the kit comes with 2 tiny red plastic pins. Should be possible to mount an LED behind each of them, and encase them somehow to prevent light leaking.

 

Still enjoying building the thing, but all the details bits and pieces are taking up a TON of time, and I still have a 2nd bogie to go, and of course the entire body shell =)

[cteno4]

Martijn,

 

cool, sounds like its coming along! 

 

to fill up the headlight around the smdled you can use stuff called gallery glass. its a very thick acrylic paint that comes in various translucent colors (or forms of clear). folks use it to make pho stained glass. perfect for making lenses like this. you could probably just use nail polish as well and build up some layers. give a test, ive never tried with nail polish. 

 

check your craft store. if not i can pop a little vial of it into the mail to you and see if it makes it thru all the systems! 

 

jeff

[Martijn Meerts]

Martijn,

 

cool, sounds like its coming along! 

 

to fill up the headlight around the smdled you can use stuff called gallery glass. its a very thick acrylic paint that comes in various translucent colors (or forms of clear). folks use it to make pho stained glass. perfect for making lenses like this. you could probably just use nail polish as well and build up some layers. give a test, ive never tried with nail polish. 

 

check your craft store. if not i can pop a little vial of it into the mail to you and see if it makes it thru all the systems! 

 

jeff

 

I highly doubt the local craft store has anything like that.. They have beads, beads, beads, crappy glue, beads, coloured paper, beads, beads, the occasional seasonal thing and beads .. Oh, and did I mention they have beads? :)

 

Sounds like the stuff you mention might work though. I've seen people use epoxy for it as well, but you have to be rather careful using that, because it's easy to get air bubbles in while mixing it up.

 

 

 

Anyway, couple of pictures of the bogie. No descriptions necessary :)

 

 

 

[cteno4]

ooooo! nice!

 

bummer on the local craft store... i can try and send a small vial if you want in the mail. white, clear pva glue also works.

 

tamia also sells a translucent line of paints for this sort of stuff as well. might try just clear nail polish! or red for rear lights.

 

jeff

[Martijn Meerts]

I'll try with some epoxy first on a bit of scrap metal or some sort of metal or plastic tube. I've seen people use it to basically create lights in Car System busses, they'd cut out the original lights, install LEDs, and basically encase them in epoxy. Once cured, they filed it to shape and polished it down and painted them to give them the correct colour. I'll probably end up colouring the lens of the LED using translucent orange paint to give it a slightly yellow look, and if needed give the epoxy lens a coat of translucent orange as well. If I mix up the epoxy very slowly and use a toothpick and some gravity to drop it in, it should work :)

 

Only disadvantage is, if the LED burns out, you'll have a hell of a time replacing it ;)