Ben Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 Hi all! So I found some photos of my old double-deck tram layout. Sadly I had to break up this layout due to lack of space, but I hope it can act as inspiration! The layout used Tomix track and the 3076 tram rail kit: the ramp connecting the upper and lower levels was a 10% grade... [smg id=1207 type=full align=center width=600] The Modemo type 300s and the Hödl combino had no problem with the ramp grade, though some four-axle cars had more trouble. [smg id=1211 type=full align=center width=600] [smg id=1210 type=full align=center width=600] The lower level had a full loop, so you could run the trams straight around. I wonder why is that bus in the way? [smg id=1209 type=full align=center width=600] Double-deck operation was alot of fun, but creates problems for track maintenance. Maybe a track cleaning car could overcome this? There are some videos somewhere too... Ben 2 Link to comment
Martijn Meerts Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 That's a serious grade Link to comment
Bernard Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 Ben - Thanks for posting the photos! Now I see what you were talking about with the 10% grade. There is commercial layout, that every Christmas in NYC is set up in the City Corp Building. One scene has a trolley going up a steep incline with an auto reverse unit. Link to comment
KenS Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 For a model tram line 10% isn't really too steep (as long as the cars can get traction to climb it). We routinely use 3% and even 4% grades when modeling ordinary train lines, which rarely go much beyond 2% in the real world (there are notable exceptions, of course). Trams can use steeper grades. The specifications (pg 15) for the MBTA's (Boston) Green Line extension allow grades up to 6%. This is (was) a nice design. With a few buildings around the ramp I think it would look right at home as an entrance to an underground line. 1 Link to comment
Ben Posted February 6, 2011 Author Share Posted February 6, 2011 When I built this layout I had in mind something like the entrance to London's (sadly disused) Kingsway Subway. Tramcars were climbing the 10% grade here in 1904! John Howe has built an amazing model of this subway in OO scale:http://londonmodeltramways.webs.com/ 2 Link to comment
bill937ca Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 Trams can use steeper grades. The specifications (pg 15) for the MBTA's (Boston) Green Line extension allow grades up to 6%. Toronto has 8% grades on its legacy streetcar system (page 3). Pittsburgh Railways had the steepest non-adhesion streetcar line grades in North America at 11.27% and 10.89% on Route 40 Mount Washington and 12.50% on 21-Fineview until the late 1960s. Link to comment
Guest Closed Account 1 Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 Sweet! I bet everyone in the first car have their arms up . Link to comment
lordwinslow2 Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Sweet! I bet everyone in the first car have their arms up . WEEEEEEEE! I can't wait to see more on this layout. I just picked up a tram from PlazaJapan and I am thinking of abandoning a huge layout for a smaller one with more tram work. With some normal commuter rail stations linked by trams on the streets. Winslow Link to comment
serenityFan Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 I cannot see the pics? it says: Sorry, you are not allowed to view this file. Make sure you are connected to the server. Link to comment
stevenh Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 I cannot see the pics? it says: Sorry, you are not allowed to view this file. Make sure you are connected to the server. Me neither... such permissions 'problems' have occurred in the past. Link to comment
FFISKIV Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Very Cool, I've wanted to do the same but the track maintenance seems like a nightmare. Link to comment
Barobutt Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Hi there, I'm going to be making a tram layout with some grades similar to yours. Which of your trams handled them best, or more importantly, were any unable to handle it? I'm really interested in that Modemo Hiroshima 5000 , barring that, I'll just get a kato portram. As I understand it, the one you have is an older version of the Modemo and a newer one is coming out. Did it have any issues bottoming out or derailing at the top/bottom of the grade? I worry such a long train might have troubles at the ends of ramps, or does each segment have enough pitch-bend to handle the crest no problem? Link to comment
Ben Posted March 19, 2011 Author Share Posted March 19, 2011 Track maintenance is always a problem for such a layout. Either you need to be able to easily remove the upper level (not easy if there are tracks on it), or rely on a cleaning car. I would recommend that anybody building an "underground" line make it with an easily removable lid, and avoid stacking the tracks. The 5-section tram I have is made in Germany by Hödl-Linie8, you can find these products at http://www.modellbahn-hoedl.de/HTML/PRODUKTE/TRAM/COMBINONSPUR.HTM. This tram, and the Modemo type 300's, handled the grades really well. If you are making a layout with serious grades, I recommend the type 300 - I think the latest version is Modemo NT113. I would expect that the new Modemo Hiroshima 5000 would handle the grades as well as the Hödl version, but until it is out and we can test it we have no way to know! Trams that did not cope with the grade were ones like the Modemo NT84, with only one powered bogie. I'm not sure how well the Kato Portram deals with grades - anybody else? I didn't have any problems with trams derailing at the end of the ramps, or bottoming out. Both the type 300 and the Hödl combino have enough vertical flex to cope. You do need to transition to the grade gradually: ideally you'd use flexitrack and have a vertical curve, but using tomix sectional track a couple of short sections do the job OK. Actually the grade continues around the corner at the top of the ramp, which you would think would be a derail hazard, but was OK. It is worth noting however that all the trams I ran had deep flanges: I suspect the Kato Portram, with its (really nice) shallow flanges might derail much more easily. Link to comment
Barobutt Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Ahhh those trams are all over $200... wow. A bit over my budget sadly. Link to comment
cteno4 Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 ben, fun project! expect the tram going up and down there would look very interesting! yes the comment i have gotten from anyone that has ever done a lower level like this is that its a pain to maintain! both with cleaning tracks and if anything derails. you are right a removable top or bottom is a must, but difficult in this situation. couple of ideas. for the bottoming out you might try bending longer sections of track over a longer area to make your transitions or use flex track in those areas and gentle curves. the kink is always the problem in grade changes like this. to the remove the top, perhaps the top and bottom could be separate pieces that the top just sits on the bottom vertical supports with peg each corner support to holes in the top. then cut the grade track (and underlying supports) near the top of the grade just after your transition is done. this will take some work securing your transition piece starting down to the top piece (and engineering supports it would rest on on the bottom section). then if you had a peg there that fixed the top grade track in the correct location to the rest of the grade track on the bottom section it should line up w/o rail connectors. would require a lot of special framing to make sure bot top and bottom sections were very flat and rigid. really looks like a fun little layout and would be much more fun to watch trams than the normal tiny roundy rounds. i love cutaway underground stations as well, guess too many of those cut away books and models as a kid! cheers jeff Link to comment
Barobutt Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 yeah in my old double-decker plans I had planned that the underground track would ONLY be along a table edge, so easy to reach and see. Link to comment
KenS Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 The Modem trams Ben mentioned are more reasonably priced: http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10104241 I haven't tried these on grades, but I have several and they look and work very good (although the motor is visible through the windows). Link to comment
Ben Posted March 21, 2011 Author Share Posted March 21, 2011 Ok, I ran some gradient tests (by jacking up one end of my shelf layout) and it seems that the Kato Portram will handle a 10% grade pretty easily. So will the new Bachmann Spectrum Peter Witt. The thing that would worry me with the Kato as a slope-climbing tram is that the articulation doesn't allow the bogies to tilt much. So it might have trouble at the start and end of slopes. Link to comment
Barobutt Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Would the Tokyu Series 300 be able to reliably handle a 103mm curve? Link to comment
Guest Closed Account 1 Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 10% That's Pittsburgh, PA. They have trolleys all over the State that do that. The Monongahela Incline does a 78% incline and Dubesque does 58%. That's with chains, no spidey grip. Great view of 3rivers Stadium. Be careful, some of the Centrams are really slow. Doubt they will do 10%. Link to comment
Ben Posted March 21, 2011 Author Share Posted March 21, 2011 The Modemo type 300 won't make it round a 103 mm curve I'm afraid... 140 mm is more or less the minimum. 10% grades and 103 mm curves together are going to be tricky! Link to comment
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