The Japan-vs-Euro Dilemma, pt. 47 (blather)

[scott]

[The following thread is mostly me venting in a safe forum--but if it seems self-indulgent, please feel free to ignore it. I just don't any real-space people in my area who would care enough to listen.  ]

 

Every time I get (or steal) a little time to work on our layout, I start dithering about setting again. I have a nice stash of euro-style buildings, but after doing a quick inventory last night I realized that we have a serious motive-power problem.

 

We have about a dozen Japanese trains and every single one of them works fine. Even the used ones might as well be new. But with the European stuff, we have two functional locomotives (a DB 112 and an SBB Re4/4 I in TEE colors), two dead railcars, two locomotives in need of work, and two EMUs that may or may not work. And just try finding an affordable SBB locomotive. Our Kato ED75 was under $50 and is about the best-running loco we have. You could spend twice or three times that on even a used European locomotive and still end up with a heavily-used one in need of work. And yeah, I know, we've talked this over before, and the Japanese market is bigger, but I still feel like people are gouging for the Euro stuff--I mean, $200 to $300 for a electric motor and a few lights and gears under a plastic shell? Why? Still, we do have a nice collection of European passenger stock that I managed to get for good prices.

 

So it would make sense, in some ways, to go with a Japanese setting--it's more affordable, and we'd have more trains for it. But I can't seem to convince myself to give up on the ideas I had for landscape and towns. I've tried coming up with a smaller layout for the Japanese trains, but I don't know where I'd fit another one, plus it seems a little funny to make a smaller layout for a larger collection of trains.

 

Anyway, I'm just spinning in circles at this point. Anybody who wants to jam a stick in my spokes is welcome to. :-)

[Martijn Meerts]

but I still feel like people are gouging for the Euro stuff--I mean, $200 to $300 for a electric motor and a few lights and gears under a plastic shell? Why?

 

Mainly, it's because of the volume that's being manufactured, as you already mentioned. Japanese trains just get MUCH bigger production runs compared to European trains. On top of that, the Japanese ones regularly get re-runs, in which case they can use the same tooling, or only slightly adjusted version of it. With European trains it seems to become more common to manufacture special edition 1-off products. Just look at what's coming new from Marklin in 2011, probably about 80-85% of the stuff announced are limited edition runs ......

 

And of course, there's the whole made in China thing. It seems the European manufacturers don't want to do the whole made in China thing, and the stubborn Euro's don't want their models to be made in China. Then there's the Marklinist, who seemingly still prefer all models to be tinplate and hand-hammered into shape :) Of course, pretty much all components in European trains are made in China already, but assembled in say, Germany. And well, N-scale isn't the most popular scale in Europe, so that doesn't help any either.

 

Interestingly enough, it IS possible to manufacture high detail, high quality, fairly priced European trains, even on a small scale. Proof of that is the Lenz 0-scale stuff. Obviously, a diesel locomotive at 500 euro is a lot of money, but considering it's 0-gauge, with DCC and sound factory installed and award winning detail and running, it's really not that bad.

 

I still have a bunch of Marklin stuff, I was planning on building a small-ish Marklin layout at some point, but quite frankly, I've given up on that idea. I still can't get myself to sell any of it though. On the other hand, I don't want to just do Japanese stuff either, but rather than deciding between Japanese or European N-scale (or a mix for that matter), I decided on Japanese-only N-scale as the main focus, and German 0-scale as a side project for when I need something bigger to work with. (and yes, I do realize 0-scale isn't an option for many people ;))

[David]

I very much doubt the large price difference is due entirely to production costs, it's about the price the market will bear. In Kato's home market of Japan it sells the same American locomotives it ships overseas to America at about a 40% premium (ex $140 vs $105). That's because there is a perceived rarity or value to 'foreign' items in Japan, even if they are being produced locally. Europe really gets the short end of the stick because manufacturers like Marklin and Fleischmann have convinced the European market that an N locomotive starts at $200, and not to expect any engineering to have gone into it - pure mom and pop shop design. About the only thing of value is the number of press on parts.

[CaptOblivious]

Scott: Here is my opinion, and I'm trying to be as unbiased as I can.

 

You have more, and better-running Japanese rolling stock. So, all else equal, make a Japanese layout. Your working Euro stuff can always come for a visit (like the Orient Express did back in '88!). Nothing is more frustrating than spending your too-short running sessions (I know I don't get much time to actually run trains!) debugging a non- or semi-functional loco. If it were /just/ cost, I might be tempted to dither, but reliability is, to my mind, paramount for a satisfying experience (esp. if kids are involved!)

[Hobby Dreamer]

Hi Scott,

 

I'm not here because I want a Japanese layout, but because of the quality of the Japanese product. I think a few guys here are the same.

 

I don't plan on a Japanese layout - actually it won't represent anything; but I hope to use a lot of the products. It seems that only a fraction of all items are noticeably Japanese such as a few trains and structures. And only "purists" would really notice or care in many cases.

 

Many of the recent trams, for example, look "modern" to me and not at all Japanese. They look like any tram one sees in almost any continent. And who care; its about fun!

 

Kato makes a lot of American items and I believe some European. And Tomix sells power units to motorize their trams (and I suppose other items). If you cannot fit a European engine shell over a Tomix power unit you might be able to fit  the unit in one of the rolling stock.

 

I mean those power units are less than $35 US. This Tomix power unit looks to be size adjustable:

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10131862

 

One thing I really love about Japanese items is their practicality. For example, one can buy tram shells for about the price of a vehicle. That's pretty cool!

 

And I personally feel that Japanese items are well priced!! I'm 100% grounded in reality!

 

You could probably make a lot of Japanese product look more Euro etc with paint and decals!

 

A lot of this hobby (or any hobby) is about compromise.

 

In my world, TT Scale (1:120) would be the right size, there would be a lot more interesting structures in card stock, tram  track with turnouts and tight diameters would exist etc  etc..

 

Don't "go Japanese" if your heart is in a non Japanese layout, but take advantage of the quality and cost!

 

Cheers

Rick

[Krackel Hopper]

hey hey,

 

I have a few ideas you may or may not have thought about.

 

If you have more Japanese, what if you make your current layout Japanese, and a smaller layout for the fewer Euro trains?  Although, as you said you probably don't have space for a 2nd layout.  Maybe if your 2nd layout were a door layout or something either modular or movable that could be stashed away.

 

Another option - since I've noticed you seem to be all over the board on your trains.  Why not make one layout.  Half the layout with a Japanese feel, the other half European?  Using a generic pasture/forest scene to separate the Japanese city/town from European city/town.

 

Or - if you really want to change things up.  Use your current layout, find a "route" to lay out a scenery divide.  Japanese backdrop on one side, European on the other.. some tunnels or hidden corners to allow your trains to move through the cutout in the backdrop.. poof.. done.. best of both worlds..

 

I think splitting your layout with a backdrop would be the best option, but since I have only seen some photos of parts of your layout and not an overhead trackplan view, I cannot say if a divide would work or not.  I do know that tunnel you keep posting pictures of would be the perfect spot for the divide on that side of the layout.

[Bernard]

Scott - You're not the only one that feels this way about the quality issues. When I got into N scale the first trains I bought were Minitrix. I have quite a few sets now and the details of the chassis configuration (4-6-2) including the Sir Gresley, Flying Scotsman, the Britannia, etc, are mostly the same. Even my Minitrix Orient Express, which is a nice looking set, isn't a great runner. I also feel the 5 pole motor, in most Japanese trains, adds to the superior performance.

 

Also Kato does make some European as well as N. American prototypes. I wouldn't be surprised if modelers who only model N. American trains prefer Kato made trains. (Doesn't Atlas use 5-pole Kato motors in their trains?)

I wouldn't limit the topic to just European manufactures but to some of the American as well. Model Power, Bachmann & Life-Like, in the past, have made some clunkers.

[bill937ca]

 

And yeah, I know, we've talked this over before, and the Japanese market is bigger, but I still feel like people are gouging for the Euro stuff--I mean, $200 to $300 for a electric motor and a few lights and gears under a plastic shell? Why? Still, we do have a nice collection of European passenger stock that I managed to get for good prices.

 

I agree.  How can essentially the same Kato tram be 2240 Yen ($27.28 US) from Japan, but as a two car set from Europe is 7600 Yen ($92.57 at HS or $108.00 US at Plaza Japan). An unpowered two wheel trailer will run you $58.00 US--thats more than several Tomytec or Kato powered trams!! And its a rerun!

 

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10003890

 

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10119787

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Tram-Rheinbahn-KVB-DOM-Kolsch-Kato-K14634-N-scale-/200554918308?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item2eb20131a4

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Tram-Rheinbahn-Add-on-Kato-K14600-1-N-scale-/200554919553?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item2eb2013681

[bikkuri bahn]

Looks like Kato or Tomix could make some money with chassis/motor that fit other brands' body shells

 

Anyway, as far as the build quality issue, yes, it may be the bigger production runs, but specifically, (and this is related to the production run size), the manufacturing tolerances are finer.  Products are only as good as the equipment they are produced on, and large production runs allow fine tuning of plant equipment for optimal results at least cost.  It also is driven by the fact that Japanese customers are the most demanding in the world (different industry, but this may be why Japanese airlines are still rather pleasant to fly on), and the internet has allowed word-of-mouth to spread quickly.

 

Good idea about the half/half layout- my dream is to have a room-sized round-the-walls layout on two levels- both single track with passing sidings, one a JNR 1960's era secondary trunk line in northern Japan, and the other a granger/bridge line in late 1950's Midwestern America...

[Darklighter]

What I find strange is that a Kato/Tomix loco costs less than 2 Japanese music albums...

[David]

Also Kato does make some European as well as N. American prototypes. I wouldn't be surprised if modelers who only model N. American trains prefer Kato made trains. (Doesn't Atlas use 5-pole Kato motors in their trains?)

 

Yes, Atlas and Kato are widely considered the 'best' brand of locomotive by US modelers (these names always appear at the top when someone asks 'what is the best brand of locomotive'), especially if the criteria is running quality. Atlas has progressed since their partnership with Kato, taking the 5-pole motor concept further with their slow and now Atlas 'scale' speed motors - motors designed to not only run very smooth and quiet, but also provide precise control at very low speeds (so slow you have to push your face up to tell it's moving) with semi-realistic top speeds.

[Sir Madog]

I just started out on modeling Japanese prototype, for many a reason, but the most important being the cost issue. Even when you add shipping and VAT (at 19% a major chunk to swallow), the stuff is roughly half the price of what I have to pay here for European stuff made by Fleischmann, Minitrix and the likes. The quality is just as good, or even better and buying directly in Japan is no issue at all. From order confirmation to my door step in just 4 days - hard to match!

 

Most European manufacturers are pricing themselves out of the market. It is not the labor cost issue that drives the prices up, as most of them have their products made in China - just like others. It is mainly greed and a wrong product policy, resulting in unmanageable costs of complexity. Just take a look at Marklin and Roco. Who, in these days can afford to buy a loco running up to $ 600?

 

In Germany, the market is still quite strong. Trains, and model railroading are as popular as ever, but the demand goes to those manufacturers , who offer good quality at reasonable prices. In HO scale that´s Piko, in N scale, Kato seems to be picking up.

[scott]

Lots of good ideas here--thanks for helping out and putting up with my dithering, everybody. I'm going to try out some of these new ideas and see what comes out. (Perhaps I could reverse the ethnicity of the big layout and the smaller, exhibit-style passenger station layout I was thinking about.)

 

(One small thing--fwiw, I wasn't complaining that the Euro stuff is expensive *and* unreliable. It's just that I have to buy used stuff since I can't afford new stuff, and while I've had really good luck with used passenger coaches (low prices and they work fine), used locos and EMUs haven't worked out so well. I hope the new ones *are* reliable, especially given how much they cost. :-P )

 

The other thing I have to remember is that even if I change my mind about the big layout, it's largely a matter of switching out buildings and signs--the basic layout, terrain, and forest cover wouldnt have to change.

 

Hmm...now I'm thinking that the hillside town by the river at the south end of the ptp line could be an onsen....

[Martijn Meerts]

(One small thing--fwiw, I wasn't complaining that the Euro stuff is expensive *and* unreliable. It's just that I have to buy used stuff since I can't afford new stuff, and while I've had really good luck with used passenger coaches (low prices and they work fine), used locos and EMUs haven't worked out so well. I hope the new ones *are* reliable, especially given how much they cost. :-P )

 

Well, my father has several Minitrix locomotives that have never run well. It's mostly steamer causing problems. Also, the locomotive I bought him for xmas a few years ago had to be sent back for repairs after only a few weeks. He's already had 2 locomotives in for service for well over a year. 1 of those has been back for service more than once ...

 

On the flip side, he has a few locomotives that run incredibly well, the minitrix v300 being a prime example (of course, 250 euro for a diesel + 40 euro for a decoder should really buy you a nice train ;))

[Mudkip Orange]

So toss a scenic divider down the middle of it and do Eurotrash on one side, J-Otaku on the other. You can use up all your existing buildings AND get some of that new Tomytec stuff as well.

[David]

One issue with trying to have a dual layout (maybe Nik & Dad can comment) is clearance. I've already found that the standard platform distance for Japanese trains is too close to the track for some American rolling stock, and not just larger stuff (even the tiny beer can tank cars from Atlas are much too wide at the ends to pass. Bilevel passenger cars scrape the edges but can be forced through). This is of course in addition to any height and curve clearance issues.

[CaptOblivious]

Hmm...now I'm thinking that the hillside town by the river at the south end of the ptp line could be an onsen....

 

Yes! TomyTec has those new onsen buildings coming out…

 

Also, you could do a take on Nagasaki, and just claim that when Japanese trains are rolling, your Euro village is a theme park :D

[cteno4]

one of our JRM members has a large basement layout he started like 15 years ago out of unitrak. its a large G shape. one end is kyoto, in a center section he kind of has a generic industrial and city area with a classic union station look, then the far other end has a euro town he calls zurich. bob's thing is he likes collecting trains he had ridden on. working in japan and europe a lot and growing up in philly resulted in this layout!

 

it actually works as the layout is large (like 18'x16') so the areas are visually separated.

 

just goes to show you can do what ever tickles your fancy, its your rr!

 

cheers

 

jeff

[to2leo]

I just have sections of different regions so that I can incorporate all of my worldly collection of trains, mostly Kato due to its quality.

[grumbeast]

I'm also thinking about the 2-sides (or more!) layout concept, I think thats the way to go.. If you're clever about the track plan, you could even utilise common storage sidings.  The real trick I think is how much compromise your willing to undertake in the common areas, the scenic bits between the area specific locations.  Personally, I'm willing to take quite a bit, and I'm doubly cursed as my interests and purchases include european, japanese, north american AND british prototypes. (I'm going mad trying to work it all out.. but its a fun mad!).  There seems to be no doubt that the Japanese stuff I have is superior in almost every way to the other stuff (with the exception of the North American Kato made stuff! :) and is great value for money.  That said I enjoy ALL of my models. 

 

Another approach (which I'm very inspired by!) is quinntopia  .. http://quinntopia.blogspot.com/  this is a fantastic approach with european and j-trains, and it just looks great!

 

Graham

[scott]

Well, I decided to consult the junior co-owner of our layout. I tried this once before--a year or more ago, just out of curiosity, I asked him if liked Japanese or European layouts better, and he said "Japanese," because "the trains are cooler." 

 

This time I told him about wanting to pick one setting or the other and asked what he'd prefer, and he said "Japanese," because "I like Japanese-style buildings." (I assume he means wooden temples and old houses, rather than concrete storefronts; I just don't dare show him that awful purple pyramid in Aomori for fear he might actually like it. :-P)

 

So anyway--the same answer twice is nearly a miracle with an eight-year-old, especially over that long a time, so I think I have my orders. Of course, we have very few Japanese building kits, so I'll have to learn some scratchbuilding skills to keep the costs down. And I have a small city's worth of European buildings that I'll need to either sell off or keep for some future layout. A few of them might pass as Japanese with a little work.

 

And I might need some serious help with signage. We could have gotten French and German right, but I've never taken a Japanese class. I can just imagine picking kanji out of the dictionary thinking it means "post office" when it really means "body odor" or "toilet leak."

[Martijn Meerts]

And I might need some serious help with signage. We could have gotten French and German right, but I've never taken a Japanese class. I can just imagine picking kanji out of the dictionary thinking it means "post office" when it really means "body odor" or "toilet leak."

 

Well, if you don't know what the kanji mean, it's not likely anyone else seeing the layout will notice ;) Until you post pictures here of course ....