CNC router

[Martijn Meerts]

Something like that is the plan yes. Of course, the really cheap CNC routers probably can't handle large volumes, but if the buildings turn out to be popular, it might be worth investing in a more heavy duty machine down the road. The cheap ones are great for getting started though. (cheap is a relative term here, the one I'm looking at is about 2000 USD, including software. You can get them cheaper if you build them yourself, but I'd rather not do that :)

 

The biggest problem would likely be getting good prototype shots and measurements, so the buildings look to-scale, and not have some weird made up dimensions :)

[Martijn Meerts]

Over the recent weeks I've been thinking a lot about getting a CNC router again. Obviously it's not something I'll be buying short term, considering I'm getting the keys for my new house late september, and will be working on the new house all of october. Cost will probably be a bit more than expected, because there's likely going to be a few things popping up even after the move.

 

All that said, I'm thinking of getting a small one to start with, mainly to get the hang of it without having to spend a ton of money. As I'll be using it mainly to make Japanese stuff, and considering people have already shown some interest in possibly buying some kits, I was wondering how many would be interested in buying kits? Obviously, I'll keep them as cheap as possible, just the cost of raw material + shipping + a little profit. Should the kits turn out to be popular, I'll most likely spend (most of) the profit on getting a more advanced CNC router in the long run, possibly even a laser cutter.

 

I'm not expecting to turn this into a mass manufacturing thing, and I'm not expecting to make a lot of money on this, but if I can get back a certain amount of the cost of a machine, it would make it a lot easier to actually buy one :)

 

I'm not entirely certain what's possible to do with the CNC router I have in mind, but I believe the smallest router bit has a 1mm diameter, so it can do some pretty decent detail work. Things I'm pretty certain that are possible is various buildings, including some sort of modular high rise set up, sidewalks with various ways of tiling, light signals including a custom board for SMD LEDs, Custom overhead track walls/plates, custom bridges, possibly even track plates to make bits of track that don't use the standard wooden or concrete sleepers, even custom train shells should be doable.

 

 

So, who would be interested in buying these things, and what would you prefer to be able to buy first?

[keitaro]

I am interested. I would be interested in some rural and metro buildings.

 

Metro likely stylish offices and apartments. Different from those on offer and non-generic. Example http://duldule.com/2010/04/the-building-design-for-apartment-and-citi-gallery-in-japan/

 

Not that as such but something thats going to stand out among all the generic look ones from tomix/kato/greenmax

[inobu]

Martijn Meerts ,

 

Funny, as I pointed out to Ken about the table saw I know (did research) a little bit about the CNC mills too. There are a few factors involved that don"t really reveal it self to us. First I would not listen to anyone who says this or that is the better machine or I would not pay that much for XXX when you can get X for cheaper. CNC machines can be compared to scalpel's and butter knives each having their value and usage. So spreading peanut butter on bread with a scalpel is equivalent to performing surgery with a butter knife.  

 

It's hard to come to a happy medium with CNC's as the consideration is relative to the usage or needs.

 

The perspective in size and the issues we face in N Scale.

 

A 1mm end mill can cut a 6 inch prototype path. So if you were to create a sidewalk with concrete slabs spacing you would need a end mill bit that is .125 mm. This size bit would render a 20mm gap (in real life) which is still large for sidewalk spacing. In order to manage this size bit the CNC would require a small stepping resolution (steps over and up). Cheaper machines can have .04 mm or so stepping were as the higher cost system will have .0002 mm steps. These factors plays into the design and engineering of the machines and relates back to cost. To get the detail needed in N Scale we need higher resolution machines.  

 

The next factor is the X,Y,Z cutting specs and often you have to give up one for the other. This is where the CNC router verses the CNC mill comes into view. The router is just that a router on a flat bed it will have a wide and long X and y axis but a shallow z cut. The mill will have a short Y and a longer X cut. The Z can vary with design ranging from 6" (150mm) to 16" (450mm). The router are for wide flat cutting where as mills are short cubical block.

 

Torque/watts factor in the machine. What it can and cannot cut - plastics verses metals. This power rating will also dictate the speed (feed rate) in which you will cut your project. It is important that you control all of these aspects to render a decent project without losing $$$ (broken bits, wasted stock). Some of the lighter machines can take 20 hours to cut a project where as a larger machine make take 4 or 5. It takes a lot of planning to hammer out a good project and lot of possible mistakes. Just imagine running a 20 hour project and it be wrong..... lot of wasted time.

 

Spindle speed comes into play with different type of material. Higher torque machines may max out at 7K where as some lower system run 30k max 12 to 15K is suitable for small bits. There are a lot of factors that goes into getting the right system for your needs. That is why I say don't pay too much attention to what people say. You have to see what will work for your needs.  

 

Hardware and Accessories. Bits and good support equipment are expensive. 1 bit is $35 to $40 and can be lost in a flash so proper care is needed. You need to put aside $300 or so for these items.

 

Then it is the software CAD and CAM.

 

CAD draws the projects you want to create and CAM tells the CNC how to cut it. Each costing about $500 to $1000 each. The good stuff Solidworks and MechCam $5000k each that's crazy. There are alternatives but the prices drop as you give up feature sets. What I notices is the  high dollar systems has logic that creates efficient tool paths that cut down on project cutting times.

 

I would not take the mindset of testing out a cheaper one first. Chances are you will be done with it in a matter of a month or two(either disgusted or outgrown).  I don't think it will yield the quality needed in N-Scale for a ROI (return on investment) to take you to the next level. In order for you get the sales you need the quality and you can't get the quality with the cheaper system so it inhibits you in the beginning.

 

The same applies for the laser system. Lot of cheap Chinese stuff and they have their issues. The one thing I saw with Lasers.... you have either success or down right failure. A friend was etching a new iPad and placed it on a towel to protect it. As it was etching it shook just a fraction and shadowed the images. Well he ended up with an iPad with some funky etching on it and he was using a good system.  

 

This venture can easily cost $10K (minimum). Can it be done cheaper? yes but it may cost you more in the long run.

 

Just my .02

 

Inobu

 

 

Oh, 3D printing....... not worth it. The good stuff $50K on up. quality...so...so.... on high end equipment too. Hard to get the different finishes needed in a finished model.

 

 

 

       

[Martijn Meerts]

Keitaro, a building like that would be fairly easy I think. It might still require a little manual labour to fix up some things that aren't possible with a CNC router, but it'd sure as hell be easier than cutting everything by hand :)

 

 

 

Inobu, what I'm looking at getting, is a modified version of the Proxxon MF 70 micro mill. The mill is designed for small projects, and there's various kits to convert the mill to a CNC mill. There's also various places that sell the thing pre-modified, so you don't have to worry about doing the conversion and alignment of motors etc. yourself. The modified Proxxon is available in 3 versions. The regular one which has 162mm x 84mm x 85mm X-Y-Z, a "euro" one for euro size circuit boards, which as 162mm x 105mm x 85mm X-Y-Z, and a bigger version which as 320mm x 84mm x 85mm X-Y-Z.

 

I'm aware it's not a "great" router, and that it can't be used to do kits that would make me rich :) It's really mainly for personal use, but I don't see a reason not to sell kits or do things for other people if they want to, and if it's doable.

 

I would be using it mainly for building walls of high rises, of which I'll need quite a bit considering the size of the city area on the new layout. High rises tend to not have very detailed surfaces, so the router would be great for that. The sidewalks was just an example, but I do think I can somehow make it work by having the router basically just scratch/scribe the surface rather than cut into it (they have 0.6mm engraving bits). With some weathering and black wash the scribed lines should pop out nice enough. (Theoretically of course ;))

 

The software will probably be the main issue. But here again, I don't think I need something with a ton of features at first, because again, what I'd be cutting initially are for the most part rectangles. One of the companies selling the modified Proxxon mill also has various software kits to go with it, so I'll probably have to start there. I should be able to get into it fairly quick, I've done plenty 3D modeling in various programs. When I studied car mechanics, I also took a course in technical drawing, both on paper, as well as with AutoCad. I also worked quite extensively with 3D studio, 3D studio Max and Maya over the years. And while those programs are quite different than what I'll be using with the router, I know all the terminology and have no problem visualizing things in a 3D space.

 

If I do decide to get the modified Proxxon, I may end up regretting it. However, I already know I'll regret not getting it once I start building custom high rises and other various bits and piece  

 

Sometimes you just need to dive in head first and hope it works. I was hesitant to buy the soldering station I have now, because it wasn't cheap. In hindsight though, it was a good decision, because soldering went from something I hated to something that's no problem at all :)

[inobu]

OK,

I think your soldering station kinda falls in line with what I'm saying. That station allows you to dial your temps where you hit it a go the CNC are pretty much the same. The last thing you want is to be working on something and a .001 backlash issue screws everything up but only you know what you want.

 

Inobu 

[Martijn Meerts]

Coming back to this again... Seems like the tax office likes me, as I'm getting a pretty decent refund. Part of it I'll save up for the Japan trip, and part I'm considering using to finally get a CNC router.

 

The Proxxon has seen quite a few improvements recently, and also went down in price. Accuracy is very reasonable, although of course not quite like the professional routers, but for my purposes it's plenty accurate. It's also a learning machine to get comfortable with using them. Should I end up making kits for others as well, I may just end up getting a more expensive one at a later stage.

 

I definitely need one though.. I placed all the modules of my yard after each other, and now have an idea of how large the main station/city area will be, and it needs a LOT of custom built stuff. Actually, even if all the buildings I need existed in kit/pre-built form, they'd collectively be much more expensive than even a professional CNC router =)