CNC router

[Martijn Meerts]

I've been considering getting one of these for a long time, but always thought they were just too expensive for hobby use. However, I noticed a small and handy cheap-ish one today, which is probably great for making (lots of) walls etc. for scratch building. It's actually a modification of a standard, miniature hobby router, which is why it's not that expensive. It is a full 3D router though, so it could also be used to manufacture brick walls and the like.

 

I've sent an email to the store selling the things to ask for more info and some general advice. It looks like I'd have to pay about 1500 euro to get the router plus the required software. An added benefit of it being so small, is that it can actually be used to make circuit boards as well, so you skip the whole etching process. A disadvantage is that if you're building a large skyscraper, you'll have to manufacture lots and lots of smaller wall sections ;)

 

I know they use a CNC router a LOT at Railz Hobby World in Rotterdam (large in-door layout) to custom build pretty much everything, but of course they have a much larger (and more expensive) variant. They are extremely happy with it though, and it's save them a ton of time considering how much they have to scratch build.

 

Anyway, does anyone here use a CNC router, or has used one before? Any good stories about the thing, why they are/aren't worth buying?

 

Obviously, if I do decide to get one, and I get the hang of it, I'll be more than happy to do stuff for forum members as well (as long as you don't want me to mass produce 30 story skyscrapers =))

[cteno4]

Martijn,

 

ooohhhhh im jealous! ive been eyeing these sorts of things, but still out of my budget for toys! think im still hanging in there for a cnc laser, but a router would be fun to make more 3D stuff!

 

keep us posted i would love to see what you are getting yourself into and live vicariously some!

 

cheers

 

jeff

[Martijn Meerts]

Well, it remains to be seen if the cheap one I'm considering is worth it. I think it's fairly limited with regards to movement over the X and Y axis, so it's really only for smaller things (it is a micro router after all ;)) And while 1500 euro is quite an investment, I do believe it'll earn itself back after a while when doing custom buildings. Not just because it saves you time, but it saves you a lot of frustration.

 

Looking at http://www.fraxeon.com/nl/fraxeon-shop/menu/enkele-voorbeelden (just look at the way too small pictures, don't mind the Dutch text), it seems the thing is fairly flexible. I especially like the building shots (middle 2 photo's, bottom row) as well as the PCB photo.

 

The next step up would be about twice the price, which is more than I'm willing to spend before I get experience using a CNC router.

[CaptOblivious]

Martijn,

 

Have you considered a ZenBot? A fraction of the price you just quoted, and, from what I've read, quite good:

http://www.zenbotcnc.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=zenbot&Product_Code=zenbotMini&Category_Code=routers

[Martijn Meerts]

Martijn,

 

Have you considered a ZenBot? A fraction of the price you just quoted, and, from what I've read, quite good:

http://www.zenbotcnc.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=zenbot&Product_Code=zenbotMini&Category_Code=routers

 

You can't compare the prices directly. The price I quoted is with everything included to get going. The 499 for the ZenBot is only the machine, add to that mount, spindle, controll software, CAM software etc, plus shipping & import tax (in my case), and it'll be nearly as expensive.

 

Definitely another option to look at though.

[jappomania]

Hi Martijn,

it's not so simple what you wanna make, the much simple method is the Proxxon MF70 based CNC, you can buy only this item and you can complete it with CNC kit. (or you can buy the complete MF70 CNC mounted like you see on the website on top)

If you want you can build your CNC, http://kitconversion.altervista.org/download.html

you can find a lot (sorry, only in italian language) of website who people talk about CNC

http://ideegeniali.altervista.org/progetti/?p=proxxon

try with google translation or write an e-mail to the website owner (in english, don't worry)

for me one of the best kit "ready to run" is built from Usovo

http://www.usovo.de/shop/product_info.php?language=en&info=p261_Proxxon-MF70-CNC-2008.html&XTCsid=35edd9722a4fe763814ab53de2880115

but remember the limit of MF70, you can work on wood, plastic material (ABS, Nylon ecc. ), aluminium, brass or other metal material is very hard to cut, you need to work with very little step.

for now, other solution are very expensive (over 2-3000 euro), low cost solution don't have the required precison (step motor, ecc....) but are really good to start to know the CNC world

(and obviously you need 3D draw capability)

 

ciao

Massimo

[inobu]

CNC machines are the way to go but it is not good to go cheap. There are factors that we don't take into consideration that gets us in trouble.

 

The smaller the machine is, the less torque it will have. The torque gives the bit the ability to bite or cut into the modeling material. This dictates what kind of material the router can mill. Smaller units are limited to plastics, wax, woods or chemical wood. The light weight machines have to nibble away at the material where as the larger units will cut through is rather easily. You will see reference to feed rate which gives you an idea of the machines performance level.

 

Because the bit is nibbling at the material it increases the run time. Increase the run time and you will see the effects on cheaper components. Some cutting process will last 20 to 30 hours depending on the model and material used. The operations and movements induces ware and tare. The expensive units have expensive components which are designed for hours of operation where as cheaper motors like that in a dremel motor does not. This holds true for the servos and drives.

 

The models that we create requires tolerances down to .0001 " or .01mm which is at precision level verses .1" or 1 mm wood working levels.

 

So, you really have to be care in selecting a mill that can consistently deliver the modeling results you want. Kinda like Fiat verses a BMW. You get what you pay for.

 

Inobu   

[Guest ___]

I thought I was on my model train forum, not my watch making forum, guess I better toss that bottle of Vikkden, because I have no clue where I am anymore. Anycase, I thought this link might be of use to the thread. (It's been sitting on my bookmarks for years) http://buildyourcnc.com/

[cteno4]

I have become a big fan of proxxon tools. just got their high speed drill and its a different world from dremel tools! the brushless motors really get rid of vibration and it really feels like a precision tool. a friend out in california who has a small exhibit fabrication shop (the guy with the large lasercutter) has most of the small proxxon tools and swears by them for detail work. he also recently got a cnc router i think or was thinking about it, ill see what he got or is thinking of. he researches his tools well.

 

i played a tiny bit with a friend's proxxon micro mill (the same basic one as in Massimo's post) and it was a very solid little machine, especially at the $350 price tag! the xy table was really solid. while its for pretty tiny pieces and cnc would need to be added, its a sweet little piece to do micro milling for train stuff.

 

i picked up the micromark xy table this spring when on a really good sale (like $60) and its great for doing some simple milling i wanted to do on plastic and wood mainly. i have a tiny drill press and also the stand for the proxxon so i can set it up easily on them to mill ends smooth and flat as well as cut slots or drill even series of holes, etc. i could definitely see getting a small mill when i retire to fiddle with as they are loads of fun! i got to play with a huge one when i was a kid. very early cnc machine that mr packard gave the shop at the aquarium from his shop. the thing was huge and weighted over 3 tons (only one place the building engineer would let us put it in the shop due to floor loads!) and was one of those you had to program via a big like 25x25 grid of buttons--definitely pre-pc! there was an old german guy who use to volunteer who came in and had it working in a snap and would turn out wonderful parts as we needed them. he helped me do a few simple brackets i needed for a project on it and was fun to learn! nothing like starting with a hunk of aluminum and coming out with something really great. was a great exercise also in planning ahead to figure out the most efficient sequence to carve up what you wanted.

 

i wish the high schools and community colleges around here would still teach adult night school shop classes. use to be you could take a very cheap class to learn things like welding and milling and such. now they are all very intensive courses and only for job training and not cheap. its a real pity as the tools for doing a lot of this stuff are getting into the range that you can have a little arc welder or mill at home now! you use to also be able to sign up for these sorts of adult ed courses to basically just get access to the shop as well. i guess budget cuts and insurance costs killed this...

 

cheers

 

jeff

[inobu]

Shashinka,

 

The models that we enjoy are made by the same quality of machines that make watch components. To put N scale into perspective .075" is 12 N Scale inches or 1 N-Scale foot. Just imagine if Kato or Tomix sold you a model building that was .075" off. You would be steaming. 

 

The key point to the OP is CNC machines operate in something called Mechanical resolution or Micro-step. If a machine cannot achieve the resolution required by a modeler that machine could end being a wasting of time and money. Cheap components could throw another wrench in the works.

 

There are three factors involved, The machines ability, the machines cost and the modelers requirements. If these factors are not taken into consideration one could waste a lot of money.

 

I always try to spend my dollar once for any given item. 

 

Inobu

[Martijn Meerts]

I thought I was on my model train forum, not my watch making forum, guess I better toss that bottle of Vikkden, because I have no clue where I am anymore. Anycase, I thought this link might be of use to the thread. (It's been sitting on my bookmarks for years) http://buildyourcnc.com/

 

I've heard a lot of people make their own CNC router, because it's so much cheaper. To be honest though, I think I'd rather spend money on a pre-built router, and then spend the time I save by not building a router on making stuff with the router and working on the layout =) Of course, it depends on the size of the router as well. The really big tables cost lots :)

 

 

 

Inobu, you have some good points. Obviously, the more expensive machinery will have higher quality parts and probably last longer. For accuracy though, I think the Proxxon based one is actually really good, because it's classified as a micro-router. So in this case you trade in torque to get more accuracy. Either way, it's bound to be more accurate than me cutting the plastic with a hobby knife =)

 

I'd mainly use it to build sections of buildings, using the standard sheet styrene, so personally I don't need high torque. Occasionally I'd use it for circuit boards I guess, but for that you don't need high torque either because the copper layer is so thin. I might also try the occasional aluminium or brass milling, but that would also be on thin sheets.

 

That being said, Proxxon tools are generally very high quality and highly regarded by those who use them. One needs to look at them for what they're designed for though, and that's model work. I do have some bad experiences with the only Proxxon tool I've personally used, a soldering iron that had a short or something, causing the tip to turn red hot =)

[Guest ___]

Shashinka,

 

The models that we enjoy are made by the same quality of machines that make watch components. To put N scale into perspective .075" is 12 N Scale inches or 1 N-Scale foot. Just imagine if Kato or Tomix sold you a model building that was .075" off. You would be steaming.   

 

The key point to the OP is CNC machines operate in something called Mechanical resolution or Micro-step. If a machine cannot achieve the resolution required by a modeler that machine could end being a wasting of time and money. Cheap components could throw another wrench in the works.

 

There are three factors involved, The machines ability, the machines cost and the modelers requirements. If these factors are not taken into consideration one could waste a lot of money.

 

I always try to spend my dollar once for any given item.   

 

Inobu

 

Personally, in 30 years of model railroading, I've had little to no interest in either scratch building, nor the manufacturing techniques of the models I buy. Truth be known machine, lathing and so forth even in watchmaking is something I'm not terribly fond of. Suppose, I rather fancy design fashion over form.

[cteno4]

Arron usually does ask which end of the screwdriver to use when we are assembling the layout... (sorry couldn't resist)

 

I love fiddling with things and building stuff from scratch that you cant get easily commercially. im a huge fan of stuff like tomytec thats fast, easy, cheap and looks good, but that only goes so far. at some point I want to make something more unique. I am also a tool freak as well (as aaron knows) and love tools. one of the first things i built in model railroading was a small turntable (both motorized and electrified) over 35 years ago.

 

as these types of automated tools get w/in range of hobbyist budgets it will be a new beginning as doing quality scratch building will get a lot easier and better results!

 

Tools and techniques to use them are a really integral part of most folks model railroading and a great discussion topic for this forum. This is especially true for the beginners with certain tools as they usually need some basic info and ideas as well a little encouragement. Scott is now happily nailing his fingers to the layout with his new air compressor and air nailer after some encouragement from the list!

 

cheers

 

jeff

[inobu]

oh ok

 

Inobu

[Martijn Meerts]

I discovered a couple of days ago that I have some money stashed away on my Norwegian bank account which I completely forgot about, so the idea of getting this Proxxon CNC router is starting to turn more into a "when" rather than "if" ;)

 

Anyway, there's a couple of versions available. They're the same basic specs, but there's a difference in the travel of the various axis. Of course, the travel on all of them is fairly limited, but it makes sense considering it's a micro router, and for N-scale it's enough anyway.

 

The standard is 162 x 84mm. Then there's a 162 x 105mm version (nice for PCB's, since that's a fairly standard size for them in Europe it seems). Last, there's a 320 x 84mm version, obviously meant to create longer objects.

 

I'm leaning towards the 162 x 105mm version, which I believe makes it easier to create single or 2-floor blocks. Those blocks can then be stacked easily to create a building of whatever height. On the other hand, the 320 x 84mm version would allow you to create the sidewalls of a skyscraper from a single piece of plasticard...

 

 

I'm actually looking forward to getting and experimenting with the thing. I've been thinking about what to make, and drawing some rough sketches on how to make single floor modules which can be endlessly stacked on top of each other =)

[cteno4]

Martijn,

 

Ohhh found monies! whoopie!

 

hey this will be great to hear what you find with these! thats the same thing i wanted to do with my friend's laser cutter, come up with a multiple configuration modular wall.

 

only downside with the cnc is it cant cut square windows! wonder if they would work with a corner punch mounted in them on styrene to square up the corners?!

 

keep us posted!

 

cheers

 

jeff

[Martijn Meerts]

Yeah, it's sort of like a xmas present =) I think it was left from holiday money I got this year from my ex-employer in Norway. I thought it was pretty much all spent though, guess not :)

 

The inability to cut square windows is something I've been thinking about as well. I guess with a really small router bit you can reduce the rounded corners as much as possible, and then just use a hobby knife to cut out the last little bits. A bit more work, but still much easier than cutting out each window by hand. Obviously a laser cutter would be better, but my "xmas surprise" wasn't big enough to afford one of those =)

[cteno4]

hey has anyone used square mortising chisels in a drill press to cut square holes for windows in thin styrene? not sure if its worth the $18 on ebay to try a 3.8" one or not. i use to have a couple, but they have gotten lost in the mess somewhere in the shop! thinking it might be an easy way to cut a lot of windows as you could do a jig that would set each row depth then a stop that each new window would lock into to get the correct horizontal spacing.

 

cheers

 

jeff

[Martijn Meerts]

http://www.railzminiworld.com/201126.html

 

Makes me want to get a CNC router sooner rather than later.. Definitely need to wait a while though until I actually need one to manufacture all the buildings for the upcoming city :)

[keitaro]

all i have to say is wow.

 

I have no idea in regards to how this works.

 

So can some one say if this is correct. I get a cad / design program on pc and link to router. Tell it to cut my design onto plastic and it does it???

 

would that be simple terms for this?

 

Like that link btw Martijn absoloutely amazing.

[Martijn Meerts]

Keitaro, that's the basic idea yes.. Of course, a cnc router has some limitations, like the minimum diameter of the router bits. The only other option is a laser cutter, which is still too expensive, or hand cut everything, which is terribly time consuming if you have to make a lot.

 

CNC routers aren't necessarily very fast though, so a church like in the link would take a lot of time cutting. It'd be great for doing modular stuff like high rises etc.

[cteno4]

cnc routers and lasercutters are pretty cool, but they do require you to master cad pretty well then also translate that cad into your cut for the cnc machine (cnc software helps you some here, but still lots of variables to deal with). these are things that take some time and skill to master, not impossible, but its not something you master in a weekend! also take some practice to figure out what the best way to cut your stock is, what you can get away with your materials and coming up with the layering designs to get the desired effects.

 

A friend has both a cnc laser cutter and a larger format cnc router for mainly larger wood working and he has put a good investment in time and learning curve to get them into his production system and he has a very solid cad and design background. the laser cutter has been fantastic for his architectural model building (mainly upscale houses) and the cnc router great for producing exhibit panels, cabinetry, and interactives. ironically he is also starting to move away from power tools in favor of using more hand tools. its greener and remarkably folks usually waste less in production as it slows you a bit and keeps you focused on exactly what you are doing at each step. also way way less dust produced.

 

been waiting to hear back from a couple of chaps on another list that have bought some heavier duty cnc blade cutters. these are basically a plotter with a small knife blade instead of a pen. usually used to cut light card board, some can tackle up to 020 styrene. they are hoping its good enough to cut out layers to create streetcar bodies. these are much cheaper, down to $500-1000 range and probably going to be one of the first places we can start getting more hobby cnc stuff that will have lower learning curves, be affordable, and be able to do simpler things of cutting rectangular windows easily and accurately.

 

cheers

 

jeff

[Martijn Meerts]

The software is usually the biggest problem. Depending on the router, you're limited to certain software. Where the large routers can often be used with autocad for example, many of the smaller and cheaper ones come with proprietary software that tends to be more difficult to get the hang of, and more limited in its feature set.

 

It's possible to cut highly detail windows from 1 piece of styrene, but you'll end up wasting a lot of material and time. Layering (like they did with the church in the link) wastes a lot less material and it faster to cut and easier to draw, just requires a bit of practice :)

 

The main reason I want a CNC router is because I'll be scratch building a lot of buildings, and I'm really not looking forward to the repetitive task of cutting hundreds of windows for the high rises I need :)

 

 

I may finally get a small one that's reasonably priced sometime next year, after I get a tax refund (should be a good one, often is the first year after buying a house.) If things go well, I can do requests or come up with some modular bits and pieces for making high rises of any size. I may end up selling those for a fair price.

 

We'll see though, have to get all the house-buying junk out of the way first :)

[Martijn Meerts]

Oh, another nice thing of a router is that it can be used to make PCB's without having to go through all the trouble you usually have to go through etching them. They won't be as accurate as etching, but more than accurate enough for doing custom PCB's for car lighting and lighting for buildings and such.

 

All in all, a very interesting device :)

[keitaro]

maybe you can make a small business of making a few copies of your buildings to forumers