Just a question about price...

[Samurai_Chris]

Ok, as some of you know. I am new to the boards and to railway..

 

I was looking at the price of things from trains to tracks ect and parts. And I was just wondering if you guys think that the price of these small N Gauge trains as expensive?

 

The thing is, I was not one that grew up in this hobby, so have no history to gauge my thinking on. So thought I would ask you guys that have been around a while...

 

Do you think they are expensive for what you get, or do you think it is value, and why?

 

Cheers, Chris

[KenS]

Well, some are more expensive than others.  But considering that a 10-car commuter train runs about US$240, and some of that is due to the weak dollar, and I used to pay around US$100 just for an HO freight loco, and US$10 - US$20 for each freight car, I don't think that's out of line. I've paid more for a single plastic HO locomotive than for some of my commuter trains, and if you collect brass locomotives you can pay substantially more.

 

There's also a broad range of costs/quality.  You can spend a lot less than what Kato/Tomix charge for track if you're willing to do more work in installing it (glue/nails, ballast, paint).  And you can buy kits to lower the cost of trains (Greenmax sells a 4-car 205 Series for 2040 Yen in kit form, as compared with a Kato ready-to-run 4-car 205 Series for 9520 Yen). Of course if you have to have that one special model, you may not have that option.

 

The "value" is hard to pin down.  I think $240 is reasonable for a highly-detailed, well-running, model train. But it's not cheap.  Ultimately the value of a hobby is entirely subjective.  Do you get sufficient fun/relaxation/distraction/satisfaction out of one train (or a dozen) to make it worth the money? Or would you rather spend that money on an Xbox, a musical instrument, or something else?

 

I have to say I get value for my money spent on trains, which is why I'm still playing with them, and buying new ones, after 20 years of adult model railroading.  And it's much cheaper than owning a boat. 

[Samurai_Chris]

Thanks for that. I come from a plastic model kit background (aircraft) and I would balk at a model that was $100-$150.. But I find it funny when researching to find my local train here in Japan http://www.1999.co.jp/10112633 I didn't even blink twice when I saw the original price of 13,800JPY now 10,000 something Yen now on discount... The detail and craftsmanship of these trains. As well as not having to do a lot to enjoy them (unlike modeling) I found the price ok...

 

I guess I am lucky that I live in Japan, so get my stuff cheaper. But I just wanted to hear what others thought....

[Tecchan]

I find it REALLY cheap!

 

When I was a kid I had a Märklin HO train that my father had when he was a kid, so we had a lot of rails and rolling stock (after a small renewal, our two 40 years old locos went back on the tracks looking new!).

 

But my brother and I wanted more recent trains and I can tell you it's expensive!

For the price of one Märklin loco (you don't have cars, tracks or transformator) you can buy a Tomix or Kato starter set, add another train like a Shinkansen and you still have some ¥ left to buy tracks...

 

So yeah, it's cheap! :-)

[CaptOblivious]

I, on the other hand, find it shockingly expensive. My other and past hobbies are/were considerably cheaper. That said, I do think that KenS has generally hit the nail on the head: I find I would rather spend my money on model trains that just about anything else, because the value these models have to me is enormous. So, I just don't buy very many (haven't purchased a new model in about a year!), and really enjoy the ones I have (as best I can, anyway).

[The_Ghan]

I find it expensive, even considering I run my own company and do quite well. 

 

But then, I was bitten by the bug when riding trains through Europe earlier this year ... particularly Germany and Switzerland.  When I returned to Australia the plan was to do a European N scale layout .... until I saw the price of the trains .... Fleischmann and other European brands are so expensive down here.  Around twice the price of a Kato or Tomix.  So the plan quickly changed to Japanese ... which suited me since I went to highschool there in the 80's.  So, when I compare it to European manufacturers I find N scale modelling with Japanese trains quite cheap.

 

But then, I'm going digital.  I've just bought myself a Digitrax Super Chief and the 20Amp power and a whole host of goodies to go with ... so ... I think the hobby is expensive again ... oh, bugger it ... just suck it in and spend the money ... you only live once!

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[David]

Expensive compared to what?

 

1. Japanese N scale vs. other countries?

 

2. N scale vs. other scales

 

3. Model trains vs. other hobbies?

 

For 1, I'd say Japanese trains are the cheapest. They have the largest market, and there is a clear segmentation between toy trains, model trains, and the collector trains. This keeps the price of the model trains and components low and the quality high.

 

By comparison American are somewhat more expensive, and quality varies much more. This seems to be the result of a smaller market and a less clear idea of what quality a model train should be. The market is trying to please both parents buying trainsets (a big money maker for the LHS) and rivet counters who complain about everything with essentially the same product line - there is no Tomix/TomyTec type of division.

 

The European market is perhaps the worst - while there are some high quality trains, they seem to pay extremely excessive prices for just about everything, which becomes a bit insulting when you get to the stuff that is definitely not high quality. And that's if you are not importing them half way around the world.

 

I should also note that the pricing in all three markets is heavily artificial - each market is marking up product based on what it believes consumers will bear. While the fact that most of it is made by the same factory in China can give you a clue, it's easiest to see by looking at someone who sells in all 3 - Kato trains are roughly the same quality in all the markets, yet prices are adjusted to match the local conditions (for example Kato US trains sold in Japan, despite being made there, are much more expensive then when sold in America because they are "foreign", and so can command a higher price). Bachmann sells in 2 of those markets and you can see the same pricing stategy.

 

 

For 2, I'd say that N scale is probably the best or second best scale in terms of pricing. Both HO and N occupy a middle point where detail and size are reasonable, and mechanisms are not overly difficult. In HO the space for a mechanism allows for extremely cheap locomotives - however these are usually very low in quality (both running and detail). On the other end, HO allows for a lot of money to be sunk into detail parts, creating a wide price range for locomotives, and due to the size, a higher starting price for rolling stock.

 

N by comparison is more contrained with its mechanisms, while there are limits to the amount of detail that can be applied. This leads to a much tighter price range for locomotives. For anything above toy quality I'd say N scale has lower priced components overall, though you do face the fact that with N you can buy much more (and 8'x4' layout in HO might be 1 locomotive and 6 cars - in N you could fill that with 4 locomotives and 30 cars).

 

 

3. Compared to other hobbies, model trains can certainly be expensive. Part of it is that few items are truly cheap, and when you do find the less expensive stuff, it's often "incomplete" - you "need" a baggage car for those cheap coach cars, and the one for that period and railroad is twice the price. You also find yourself changing what you actually want to model and new items appear on the market and old items (these days quickly) go away. It is possible to do N scale relatively cheaply, but it requires deciding exactly what you want, having it on the market to buy, and then sticking with it.

 

If you want to save money, I'd suggest asking lots of questions at forums like this and discuss what you plan to do and what you hope to get out of it. Drawing from other peoples experience can save you a lot of money in terms of items you'll buy and then decide you don't really need later on.

[spacecadet]

Back when it was more like 140 yen to the dollar and Japanese prices were lower too, I remember thinking "wow, I can get a whole shinkansen set for $70!"  I was just out of college, though, and had no money, so I thought I'd wait.  I'm only just finally getting around to buying my first batch of stuff too.

 

Nowadays Japanese prices have gone up a bit and the dollar has tanked, so it's more like $200 or more just for a basic 7 car set.  It's not really expensive compared to the prices of American trains, which are usually $25-$30 per car now minimum for any decent quality (you can buy real junk for less), plus you have to buy the loco separately, but it's a lot more expensive than it used to be.

 

I'm envious if you're in Japan, because it probably seems a lot cheaper.  Still, I am pretty sure that even Japanese prices have risen over the years, especially because 10 or 15 years ago it seemed rare that you'd get fewer than 7 or 8 cars in a basic set (and these are what I remember working out to around $70), and now you might get 4 cars for around the same yen price.  Though it does seem like the quality is better, which is true of American trains too as they've gotten more expensive.  But it seems like that's making the hobby more specialized, and less of a mass market thing.

[bigford]

what about $100.00 for a kato maxi-iv 3 well cars and

containers

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10098618

so it's $29.85 per car/w containers

i mean for something that just rolls around the track.

 

we just had a topic over on another site about the price of rolling stock

now you guys all seem to run short train BUT U.S. prototype

is 3-5 locos and 100 plus cars

choke on this price for Trinity 64' Reefer Box Car

 

Scale:  N Scale 

Catalog:  ARMNN-1    24 Numbers  - add $598.80 $24.95 per car

pricing is nuts latly for rolling stock almost as bad for locos

[Nozomi]

I consider japanese N-scale trains great value for money. Its hard to believe that the manufacturers can make any profit with these models if one keeps in mind that there is a 20-40 percent margin included on retail prices.

 

Do you want to know the true meaning of expensive? Have a look at this:

http://www.reynaulds.com/products/Fleischmann/7460.aspx

[to2leo]

Wow a lot of you are quoting and buying? the MSRP.

 

As a person who loves a deal, I avoid paying regular prices at all cost.

 

So pointers to remember.

1) Kato also makes high quality European models which are cheaper than Fleischmann, Rocco, Minitrix...

2) Best time to get European models is pre-order items during the 2 weeks period right after the Nuremberg Toy Fair every Feb.

3) Japan retail stores also have similar pre-order period at about 25% off and that happens every month.

 

If you live in Japan, consider...

Tam tam for all your purchase of new items for 30% off. http://www.hs-tamtam.co.jp/goods.php?cat=1

Hobbyland Pochi for pre-owned for up to 60% off. http://hobbyland-pochi.net/

[grumbeast]

I find j trains great value and so far there is a nice consistent quality. It's better value for money that north American, British and European models

 

On the subject of track, I used to use peco exclusively but made the switch ato kato a few years ago, it may seem more expensive but the amount of fun I've had as a result is worth way more than the price difference

 

So if your getting into model trains, Japanese n scale is about as economical as it gets as I see it

 

Graham

[keiman]

As someone who came via Z gauge swiss and US, Japanese N is a bargain.

Microtrains are still the cheapest Z gauge in the UK, My Z narrow gauge is the most expensive-I paid in excess of 500 euros for a  hand built RHB loco, wagons were 30 euro's in kit form and still required soldering(Nickel Silver bodys)

Overall a very cheap hobby compared to running Japanese Imported cars, spares are a total nightmare to get hold of especially for the less common models - Kei cars in particular.

[bill937ca]

I would say Japanese N gauge trains are not expensive.  I recently added a Tomix J.R. EF66 Blue Train Set (Basic 3-Car Set) for 6400 Yen (about $75 US today) which is a complete, albeit short train with many features.  If you can only be happy with 16 car Shinkansen trains or long Blue Trains with limited edition car sets it may get very expensive. Depends on what you buy and what you want.

 

On another note the hobby can be relatively expensive to enter.  You need track, will probably want switches and other special work, a power pack, trains and other rolling stock, buildings, vehicles and figures for scenery,

plus a table or bench work to run your trains on  and all this takes money and more money.  In that sense, yes trains can be expensive.

[Samurai_Chris]

Thank you for all of your replies! It is a very interesting subject, and I have enjoyed what everyone has offered.

 

Yes it's true that I am a little daunted as I am just starting out. But I am sure that once I have basically what I set out to achieve, then it will just be a matter of getting the odd thing here and there, and so I am sure that it won't seem so bad later on...

 

I will say that I think that these trains are good for the price, as they look to be very high quality, and very sturdy... I also want to enjoy this hobby with my kids. It has been difficult with my plastic medeling, as I am always scared they would break the model if they touched them. So now they can have something that we can enjoy together...

 

I am going to go pick up my Tomix Tsubame set today, and am looking forward to it!

[bikkuri bahn]

On another note the hobby can be relatively expensive to enter.  You need track, will probably want switches and other special work, a power pack, trains and other rolling stock, buildings, vehicles and figures for scenery,

plus a table or bench work to run your trains on  and all this takes money and more money. 

 

In some ways a reflection of real life- railways have to buy their own right of way, build infrastructure, etc. while the buses, trucks and airlines had it provided for them.

[Samurai_Chris]

Well. I just returned back from my local Hobby store and am now the proud owner of my very first N scale railway.. I decided to start off with the Tomix Shinkansen 800 "Tsubame".. They had it reduced, and as I am a regular customer I had a 500JPY off ticket, so got it for 12,840JPY.. Very happy.. I also got the guys to reserve my local http://www.1999.co.jp/10112633, and got it for 11,080JPY.. Considering the shipped price for the Hobby Search set would be over 12,500JPY. I thought 11,080JPY was a good price and ordered it through the shop... They will notify me when it arrives next month...

 

The Toys-are-Us down stairs had the 5 car Tomix Shinkansen 500 "Nozomi" set for I think 9,999JPY, and the 700 series for 12,750JPY....

 

Just busted my cherry so to speak and have a smile from ear to ear.. My Tsubame is just beautiful!

[bigford]

ive always liked that train, i could see it as a passenger train

in the U.S.  BUT what i dont like is this line

*Headlights, taillights, front-lit display windows destination. LED use. With ON-OFF switch*??

[disturbman]

Well. This hobby is expensive, really expensive (even more if you are a train buff and you just like collecting items) but Japanese trains are just... marvelously cheap (and beautifull and incredibly reliable).

 

I was schocked the first time I saw the price for a train set in a store in Akihabara. In Germany, a new N loc (from a "good" manufacturer) cost something between a 100 and 300€. A coach or freight wagon cost 20 to 40€.

 

With Japanese trains I can buy myself a complete 6-car train set for the price of one cheap european loc.

 

...Chris, you finally bite the bullet! And with a very nice train! I love the Tsubame. I think I'll need to buy one at one point since I started collecting JR Kyushu trains after my traveling there this year. Enjoy!!! :)

[Samurai_Chris]

Well. This hobby is expensive, really expensive (even more if you are a train buff and you just like collecting items) but Japanese trains are just... marvelously cheap (and beautifull and incredibly reliable).

 

I was schocked the first time I saw the price for a train set in a store in Akihabara. In Germany, a new N loc (from a "good" manufacturer) cost something between a 100 and 300€. A coach or freight wagon cost 20 to 40€.

 

With Japanese trains I can buy myself a complete 6-car train set for the price of one cheap european loc.

 

...Chris, you finally bite the bullet! And with a very nice train! I love the Tsubame. I think I'll need to buy one at one point since I started collecting JR Kyushu trains after my traveling there this year. Enjoy!!! :)

 

 

 

Mate, and as a noob. I am learning, even on the small starter track.. I worked out that of the 3 carraiges supplied. (1,2,6) only the 2 carraige is motorized, and so I was wondering why it seemed a little slow when I cranked her up.. I then realized that once I bought the other 3 cabs, then with those extra motors. The speed will increase!.. Really enjoying my starter kit as we speak. And so is my 8y.o daughter!

[David]

With the exception of a few 16 car sets, there is only one (model motor) motorized car. How fast are you hoping for it to go? Most Japanese model trains can run much faster then their prototypes scale speed limit. Remember that these are scaled down models - a 150mph train modeled at 1:150 should now travel at 1mph. If you have a crossing or other point of reference like a model building, put yourself down at eye level and watch the train passing it - that will give you an idea of how fast it is going. If the train really is going slow by model standards it may have a problem with the motor - does it sound like an electric shaver, or is the movement not smooth even at higher throttle settings?

[Guest ___]

Initially I thought it was a bit higher to start, but when I looked last what KATO mdoels cost in HO or N for N. America, then added the cost of carriages in to play, I do find it to be a pretty good value. Ten or fifteen years ago, HO started to get high end. Everything came with DCC, and hundreds of hand added detail parts. that sent the cost of locomotives in HO up to the 100-1500 range. I grew up where a good Athgern engine was 25-35 range and a cheap Bachman or Life-Life was 15. Those days have past. But have you looked at a Walther's catalog lately? I mean I've seen autoracks selling for like 50 each. 50 bucks for one car. A short 20 car train is a grand. Who the hell ever seen a 20 car autorack? So AFAIC, the cost of N-scale is pretty decent.

 

Now compared to other hobbies, I'm a robot guy so this is a bargain with even cheap sets going for 500-5k. Photography, well, 15k in camera gear versions 2.5k in model trains, still cheap. I got who knows what in my old anime DVD collection of 400 discs. International travel; ten fold more than this in cost. Maybe some day my model trains will spread out over the long run be expensive, but the nice thing with this hobby is that you buy bits and pieces at a time, and that there is no need to buy or add another train every six weeks. I will admit, N-scale compared to T-scale it's a bit more, but it sure is cheaper than what I pay for Z-scale, and much cheaper than O....

[Guest ___]

With the exception of a few 16 car sets, there is only one (model motor) motorized car. How fast are you hoping for it to go? Most Japanese model trains can run much faster then their prototypes scale speed limit. Remember that these are scaled down models - a 150mph train modeled at 1:150 should now travel at 1mph. If you have a crossing or other point of reference like a model building, put yourself down at eye level and watch the train passing it - that will give you an idea of how fast it is going. If the train really is going slow by model standards it may have a problem with the motor - does it sound like an electric shaver, or is the movement not smooth even at higher throttle settings?

 

I like to run my trains at "Ludicrous Speed" just so they can go plaid. But for the rest of people out there light speed or even sub-light is fast enough. 

[bikkuri bahn]

ive always liked that train, i could see it as a passenger train

in the U.S.   BUT what i dont like is this line

*Headlights, taillights, front-lit display windows destination. LED use. With ON-OFF switch*??

 

Are you referring to the blue train set?  I believe the on/off switch is for the taillights, needed if you intend to place the "end" car at the head end, just behind the locomotive. My HO scale Kato day coaches also have this switch.

[KenS]

ive always liked that train, i could see it as a passenger train

in the U.S.   BUT what i dont like is this line

*Headlights, taillights, front-lit display windows destination. LED use. With ON-OFF switch*??

 

Are you referring to the blue train set?  I believe the on/off switch is for the taillights, needed if you intend to place the "end" car at the head end, just behind the locomotive. My HO scale Kato day coaches also have this switch.

 

I think the reference was to the Series 813.  It would appear that series (Japanese wikipedia) uses two-car and three-car sets that can be linked to form longer trains. The switch is probably to turn off the head/tail lights on an end linked to another set. Like the blue train coaches, several of my commuter models that run in 10+5 sets have such a switch on one end.